Is deadly force justified in this scenario?

[The_Outlaw]

Another crazy story out of the subways of New York.

Queens father fatally crushed by train after deranged man flings him onto Midtown subway tracks - NYPOST.com

Serious question....'If' you are legally allowed to carry with a CHL in this situation (wishful thinking in New York) and you see this large thug shoving an innocent person onto the tracks in front of an oncoming train, would you be justified in shooting the s.o.b.??

 

[Austin]

Would it stop the victim from being killed or would it be retaliation for his action?

 

[eagleeyes]

if i was the victim and had a gun yes i would be justified in shooting the guy trying to throw me on the path of an oncoming train ......but being it's a crowded subway and all i'd have to think twice or perhaps fought my attacker so he couldn't throw me perhaps hung on to him so he couldn't have thrown me ...hard to tell as so much comes to play ...esp deciding to fire in a crowded subway so a gun might not been the answer but perhaps people who seen it could have at least stopped the bg from getting away? which if i was a bystander witness might have opted to do if i was in a position to trip him bring him down and hope others help hold him down till cops come to take him away...........or perhaps spray him with pepper spray as he ran past me........and stuck out my leg to trip him to the ground.......hope they catch the bastard..or pushed him in while he 'loomed' over the victim after he threw him but dang all those people and no one helped is just sad imo

 

[vernsimpson]

Good question. I do not know what I would have done if I had been there. But from the way the story is written I would say NO. Being loud, a jerk and making people uncomfortable are not reasons to shoot. The only time was when he threw the man onto the tracks. By then it would have been to late to save a life.

 

[Treo]

Serious question....'If' you are legally allowed to carry with a CHL in this situation (wishful thinking in New York) and you see this large thug shoving an innocent person onto the tracks in front of an oncoming train, would you be justified in shooting the s.o.b.??

What good would it do? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to help the poor guy that got pushed onto the tracks?

Now if the victim had shot the guy to prevent himself from being pushed then yes, I think he would be justified

 

[K7lvo]

From the way the article reads, no. The push probably happened so quickly that there would have been no time to draw and fire, and, before the push, there would have been no justification.

 

[Kalamity023]

I would say you're not justified to shoot. Got to think its NYC. Their deadly force laws are probably as convoluted as their gun policies. Not to mention the collateral aspect of the incident, (I'd like to think I'm a better shot than most of the NYPD, given their history; but would still be hesitant). I'd also like to think I'd do what I could to help this person without being endangered as well.

There's so much to this story that we don't know yet. We just know of an altercation and 1 man getting pushed onto the tracks. Its highly unlikely this was a premeditated incident. My speculation is that this was a confrontation gone awry. The perp left because he was scared. There is probably no relationship between the 2 men just this one encounter.

 

[Firefighterchen]

As a third party you would have no way of knowing the circumstances. Hindsight is 20/20 so the poll is unfairly biased knowing now what you wouldn't know then. If I was being pushed onto the tracks, I would be justified in shooting in self defense. As a third party, I would attempt a different solution.

 

[Happypuppy]

I agree with one of the posters. The answer is no. I know it seems like the right the thing, the good guy thing to do

The problem is you are not in danger and what you are trying to do is the edge of law as extended to protection of others

 

[tricolordad]

I voted yes on the premise that the shot would stop the attack and free the victim who would either be electrocuted or run over, both fatal. Also supposing that the train was coming from behind me and not the victim. The attack would be attempted murder, a felony.

Edit: also assuming I am not and could not get close enough to TaeKwon Do his ass into the ground

 

[Deserteagle]

First of all, you most likely dont know if a train is coming. If no train is coming, the victim could just climb back out and now you shot a guy for just pushing somebody.

Secondly, you dont know what is going on, so unless it is horribly obvious, why involve yourself rather than just call 911?

Third, this would most likely be seen as retaliation or revenge.

I would call 911 and help the guy get off the tracks.

 

[Treo]

First of all, you most likely dont know if a train is coming.

Never been in a subway have you? Those trains are loud you know they're coming

 

[tricolordad]

First of all, you most likely dont know if a train is coming. If no train is coming, the victim could just climb back out and now you shot a guy for just pushing somebody.

Secondly, you dont know what is going on, so unless it is horribly obvious, why involve yourself rather than just call 911?

Third, this would most likely be seen as retaliation or revenge.

I would call 911 and help the guy get off the tracks.

Nah, the trains are loud. You'll definitely know. I grew up in Staten, rode the trains for years. The tracks are electrified too. If you touch em, you fry. Saw a homeless dude piss down there once and next thing I heard a pop, grabbed cover and realized that scuzzy dude was convulsing. Throwing someone down there is attempted murder, the fall alone can break limbs. getting up before a train hits you, if you're still alive...is probably next to impossible. Lots of people get mugged, stabbed, shot and shoved while the mob prepares to rush the doors. Heard about it almost daily...

 

[Deserteagle]

Never been in a subway have you? Those trains are loud you know they're coming

That's true. We dont seem to have any subways in CO so it's no wonder that I dont have much experience with them

 

[mojoman]

Interesting, and I would say no also but my first reaction would be yes.

 

[longslide10]

After the fact probably not but as a citizen licensed to carry a firearm I believe it is our duty to protect others when the need arises.

Hey Costas should we ban trains now too?

 

[maine04619]

Many more variables need to be known before I would decide. Also the fact that every stop on the NY lines have at least a couple cops there some stations many more I woudl be VERY inclined not to draw my weapon in the scenario due to the high probability of being shot myself by the LE'S unless my life was in immediate danger.

 

[kelcarry]

Good question. I do not know what I would have done if I had been there. But from the way the story is written I would say NO. Being loud, a jerk and making people uncomfortable are not reasons to shoot. The only time was when he threw the man onto the tracks. By then it would have been to late to save a life.

The above quote sums it up for me. By the time you can even think of Alter Ego, wherein in some states you can act as if you are the person in imminent danger, this outrageous act is over with already. Shooting him after the fact is murder or some class of manslaughter--it sure as heck is not a good shoot anymore. There just not seem to be any logical way you can witness this act and find a reason to use your firearm, unless, after pushing the guy onto the tracks, the madman starts going after someone else just before the train is coming towards all of you.