Insult my wife


I'm new on this board and find this discussion quite interesting. As a long-time baseball/softball umpire, I have been threatened with violence many times by hotheads, usually slow-pitch softball players full of liquid courage. Some of these hotheads were police officers of the township where the game was being played. I eject them from the game for foul-mouthed insults, and they tell me they'll be waiting in the parking lot when the game's over. So far, no one's ever actually followed through on a threat. So far. (College softball, high school baseball—never have had a single incident. It's the 30-year-old fantasy big leaguers trying to prove their manhood who are the problem. And unlike when I played, there's now a lot of drinking before the games.)

What I am expected to do as an official is certainly in conflict with my long southern heritage that dictates that if you let an insult stand, you're disgraced. (Interestingly, this is the same "code" that is taken to extremes by certain urban youth today, who beat their girlfriends mercilessly for speaking out of turn and blow away anybody who looks at them funny.) Speaking of insults to your wife, about 150 years ago my great-great-whatever grandfather (a judge) once shot a defendant dead right in a courtroom. The man had burglarized the judge's house and in doing so had entered the bedroom of the judge's wife (when the judge was away). This was tantamount to rape. In those days, that kind of personal affront had to be handled by the aggrieved party; it could not be left to the authorities.

I have "carried" for only a year now (just switched from Ruger 101 .357 magnum to LCP), and I can state definitely that having that weapon available, and knowing both the power and the responsibility I have, makes me react very calmly to almost anything that happens. When I am carrying, I'm a vastly gentler person, meticulous about traffic laws and general decorum. I suspect it would take a great deal of provocation to get me to draw my weapon or even mention that I was armed. I also figure that if I start trading insults and then have to use my weapon, a court will say that I participated in escalating the situation. Carrying a weapon also removes the necessity or temptation to do any posturing to dissuade the other party from persisting. In fact, I can see how carrying a weapon actually reduces violence. I wouldn't risk my CCW permit for some idiot.

Well, I've signed up to attend a seminar run by a couple of lawyers who specialize in CCW issues, so I'll be sure to ask them about what to do if somebody insults your wife. (In my particular case, the guy would probably get his eyes clawed out, and not by me.)

By the way, I agree with the previous poster who said that if you're out there looking to be insulted, you will be.
 

Since JJ posted this as a scenario thread, the scenario of verbal insults DO NOT warrant any kind of action other than walking away. Carrying or not, you walk away because how do you know the instigator doesn't have a gun?

Taking the scenario a step farther... what if the perp spits on your wife? You keep walking.

However, the second he lays a hand on her or me or he purposefully is blocking our path and will not let us pass, he'll be staring down the barrel of my XD, laid out on the ground and the cops will be enroute. Assault begins with a threat; battery begins with a single touch regardless of a poke or a punch.
Link Removed

Oh, and I'm from the south, born and raised. Yes you respect women, especially another man's woman. But to risk your life over words is over-rated.
 
"what if the perp spits on your wife?"

You can't let that one go, and nobody would expect you to. That's extreme provocation, and you would be justified in assuming that the spitter intended further harm. It's like blocking your path, and far more serious than merely poking you in the chest with a finger and telling you off about where you parked. It's the equivalent of "fighting words"—words that any reasonable person would expect to provoke a violent response—and would certainly be deemed assault.

Whether at that point you would be justified in drawing your weapon would depend on many factors, and I wouldn't claim to have a precise handle on them all. Were there three other thugs with the spitter? Was it in an alley at 3 a.m. or on a busy street in the daytime? Was the spitter a beefed-up monster with prison tats or a weird-looking little squirt with pink hair? How old and big are you? Did the spitter spit in your wife's direction and some of it hit her, or did he walk right up and spit right in her face? Did this confrontation come right out of the blue, or did something lead up to it?

As I mentioned in another post, I'm attending a seminar on CCW soon. I'll pose the "spat on my wife" scenario to the lawyers.

I read about a case recently where college students who were passing out politically incorrect literature were spat upon by other students determined to enforce political correctness on campus. As much as I despise the p.c. fascists, I would say that you could not draw your weapon under those circumstances.

Never forget that the courts do not operate in a vacuum, but are subject to political pressure that can overwhelm the merits of a case. The Duke University phony rape case is the foremost recent example.
 
Bama, if you do pose that spitting question to the lawyers, will you please report back on this thread. That is one scenario where I know that it would be hard for me to tolerate...even though I KNOW I should walk away. And with my wife being Cambodian...the opportunity of running across "racial" prejeduce/intolerance is a very possible.

I also hesitate to think about drawing my weapon as a "deterant" to violence. I understand the theory of "staring down the barrel of my pistol" as a deterant...but I have made up my mind (and trained as such) that if I HAVE been forced to draw the weapon I am most likely in a situation where I will HAVE to be using it.

Each scenario is different, and that's what's great about this forum is the exercise we go through with the scenarios.
Playing the possible scenarios in one's head...and predetermining a proper response was one TRAINING TECHNIQUE that was really PUSHED in my CCW class.
GREAT exercise.

The difference to me boils down to "social violence" -vs- "sociapathic violence".
If there is still talking going on...it's still "social" and should be walked away from if possible.

If the talking never started/has ended...and the situation is going directly to "violence" then it's "asocial/sociopathic" and when I draw I'm doing it to stop the confrontation...and no words are necessary except one last warning "STOP!!!".

One thing that should ALSO be discussed is the need for "situational awareness" to prevent yourself/wife from getting into these situations.

Yes, SOMETIMES it's impossible to prevent (surrounded in a grocery store parking lot, for example)...but the typical "social" threat/insult situation usually leave an opening to "walk away".

It's the situations that go DIRECTLY to violence (without discussion) that concern me the most, and what I train for.
And those situations are typically surprises, and happen with no warning/discussion...and are "sociopathic" in nature.
The kind where people are out to just have fun killing/assaulting you or your wife.
Those situations may start with a friendly smile and a request for the time or spare change (as they get close enough to strike without warning)...rather than an obvious insult.
:mad:
 
arizonaguide, I am making up a list of questions and situations for this seminar (October 10), and I will certainly pose the spitting question and report back on it.

As in other areas, we don't have a problem with the obvious cases—the cut-and-dried ones that never make it to court. Yes, if the guy has knocked you down and is coming at you with an axe, you can shoot him. No, if the guy says, "That's my parking place," you can't shoot him. It's that vast sea of situations in the middle that are problematic. I do know that many, many factors are involved. I also know, as my own lawyer (the county prosecutor) told me, politics does play a part. In his words: "Maybe the situation hadn't reached the point where the old lady had the legal right to shoot the burglar with the long record of brutalizing old ladies, but good luck getting a conviction."
 
This has been EXACTLY my point all along: that there are situations which I (and others) would find VERY hard to walk away from. For me, as I said when I opened this thread, insulting my wife would be one. Spitting on her is a no-brainer for me - no way would I walk away. But that's just me. Others may have different scenarios and tolerance levels. I do get a lot from these discussions and may just alter my approach given that I've had time to read these forums and think about things ahead of time. Tactical handgun training which I have taken expressly encouraged the students to do just that: think ahead of time as to how you might want to react and how you should react, giving thought to the tactical and legal considerations. For those who tend to think that things are "cut and dried" and know definitively how they are going to react, that's great. Others see a lot of "gray area" (I do) and are not so sure. I'm appreciative of the folks who take the time to post thoughtful insights on this forum.
 
I would consider spitting on me or a loved one assault because the person could be carrying a disease like AIDS.
 
HK4U said:
I would consider spitting on me or a loved one assault because the person could be carrying a disease like AIDS.
Click to expand...

Hepititis is a more likely threat, but agreed, that spitting on someone would be a step above simple name calling, and would illicit the appropriate response from me.



gf
 
Sure it would be great to smack that bad boy, but as carriers I think we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. To walk and grind your teeth is the way to go. I guess it all comes down to attitude.
 
It is the "scenario" threads like this that are the BACKBONE of USA Carry forum, and are perhaps the most valuable resource we have to prepare for the possibility of having to use our Carry Piece, and are a tremendus training tool IMHO.

This type of "exercise" was pushed in my CCW and Defensive Pistol training as perhaps even more important than range time, once the basics of gun handling were learned. Playing out the scenaris and having a "plan" also does MUCH to build the confidence and ability to react under pressure.

As well as helping make sure that the aftermath of a defensive shooting is more likely to be favorable to you.
Win-Win in my book, and time well spent. GREAT thread.
 
BamaBoy said:
"what if the perp spits on your wife?"

As I mentioned in another post, I'm attending a seminar on CCW soon. I'll pose the "spat on my wife" scenario to the lawyers.
Click to expand...
Please let us know the results of that inquiry.. I know that on a baseball field that would be assault... If you did that to a LEO you would be in cuffs.. Stands to reason that if done to you and I it would be considered assault...
 
It's a sad commentary to me, all these "what if" threads on shooting scenarios. Seems like some people just seek more justification to use their weapons in questionable situations. If there's ANY doubt whatsoever, the anser is <<N>> <<O>>. Don't do it. Don't even think about it. If you are a normal non-psychopathic person, your instincts will be correct. If you are some kind of bloodthirsty socipathic idiot they will be wrong. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
Some people might indeed be looking for an excuse to draw their firearm, but nationwide those types, contrary to hysterical predictions from the anti-gun side, have proved to be pretty rare. I think the posters in this thread are expressing legitimate concerns. Believe me, I am looking for a way out of trouble on the street and sincerely hope I never have to draw my firearm. I can't remember any time in my 60 years in which I felt I was in mortal danger from another person. But things can happen, and as I grow older I become a more appealing target to predators. I don't want to find myself helpless in the face of danger.

What do you do when confronted not with a deadly threat, but with extreme provocation? How does being armed affect the situation?

As I said, I'll report what the lawyers say.
 
Responding to the original post I would just say "whatever" and walk away. In the likelihood that you do not even know this person, who gives a rat's a$$ what some moron thinks about you or says to your wife. When you are armed you have to be the adult and not let your ego or pride get in the way. That's just the way it is. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and walk away. Think of all the legal problems associated with a mutual fight when you are armed. The legal bills, the police involvement, you possibly being arrested, or at a minimum handcuffed and disarmed while the police sort it out. "Whatever" and walk away. I believe the original poster said in a later post that he has a black belt. He then should understand the idea of controlling your opponent. This guy insults your wife and makes you angry. He has controlled your emotions. When you get mad you do not think objectively. If you respond physically, he has controlled your actions. He gets the physical confrontation he wants. You do what he wants you to do, he has controlled you. If you don't show anger, and show indifference, you are showing him his words have no power. You don't get physical and you have controlled his actions by not allowing him to respond physically. You have controlled the situation now walk away. If he pursues you as you try to retreat then he is taking this to another level and your legal options change. Still, if you choose to carry a gun sometimes you have to go against what your ego tells you to do. To quote Massad Ayoob in The Gun Digest of Concealed Carry
Under the "higher standard of care" principle, the armed private citizen is seen as having a particular duty to avoid conflicts
- shouting matches, upraised middle fingers, curses
- and is expected to de-escalate rather than "keep the ball rolling." Let alone offering provocation.
Click to expand...
If you want or feel the need to start a fight with everyone that looks at you or your wife sideways then I suggest not to carry a gun in the first place.
 
Some of the posts have equated spitting in one's face as assault and possible cause for disease---I agree. You will be sorely mistaken, however, if you equate that kind of assault to an assault that puts you in fear of your life (even with the disease posssibility) and use of your CCW. If you disagree on this you do scare me a bit, even though my private thoughts to myself would want to teach this guy a real lesson that he will never forget.
 
kelcarry, so far I haven't heard anyone claim that spitting is ipso facto justification for the use of deadly force. I'm sure the lawyers at the seminar are going to agree with you on that point.

The question involves whether and how you should respond to extreme—but not deadly— provocation if you are armed. Should you still simply walk away to avoid any possibility of escalation that might reach the point where you have to draw your gun? If you confront the spitter the same way you would if you were unarmed, and then the situation gets out of control, will a court say that you should have walked away even when the spitter remained the aggressor?

I suspect that the lawyers will say that if somebody spits on you (or your wife) while you are armed, get out of there as fast as possible and call the police. You'll more likely than not regret it if you stick around to defend your honor.

Too bad. I sometimes wish I lived in another age.

A postscript about spitting: a couple of years ago a car full of young punks pulled dangerously and recklessly around my son's car, which was about to exit a mall onto U.S. 1 in Lawrence, New Jersey. My son (age 22) opened his window and asked what they thought they were doing, and the driver leaned over and spat out the passenger window. The spittle hit my son, and the punks took off, tires squealing.

My son got the license number. luckily found a cop quickly, and reported the incident. The police managed to find the punks and stop their car just as the driver was pulling onto his street a few miles away. After a brief denial, the punk admitted to the cop that he spat, but claimed he didn't mean to hit anyone with the spittle. No arrest, since the officer had not witnessed the spitting.

The cop contacted my son the next day and told him that he could file a complaint for harassment (not assault). I accompanied him down to the station to pick up the police report, but after talking to a lawyer friend of mine, we decided to let it go. My friend told us that in court my son would have to identify the person who spat across the passenger in the dark. My son admitted that such identification would be difficult. The lawyer also told us that all the punks would testify that my son started the trouble and in fact spat at them first, etc., etc. He also reminded us that if the case went to court, the punks would learn my son's identity and address. Further, he said that the harassment charge would be knocked down to disorderly or something anyway, so there was really no point in pursuing the matter. He said something like, "You'll be causing more trouble for yourself than for the other guy. But, sooner or later, bums like that spit on the wrong person and pay the price."

Sorry for the long post, but it shows how the courts, at least in the Soprano State, consider spitting a lot less important than does the person spat upon.
 
Hey Hawkeye638: I think your last post said everything that has to be said. IMO it was right on t arget.As they say with Hebrew National hotdogs---"you answer to a higher authority" when you are CC. You may not like it when confronted by some idiot for any reason but common sense and calmness can "win the day" regardless of what the idiot has done---presenting your CCW almost always just escalates the situation. I think that any of us will DEFINITELY KNOW FEAR FOR OUR LIFE, if it faces us--any "what iffing" on that is indication that it is not a situation that calls for use of a CCW. If nothing else, these posts, as much as they may repeat comments, are still a great way to discuss all aspects of these very serious situations for all of us who may CC and I appreciate everyone's comments, whether I agree or disagree---thanks guys (and gals).
 
I have a question for those talking about spitting. This actually happened in the military so it's relevancy here is minimal. A friend of mine, Clem, was talking to a guy in a car and the guy got upset and spit on Clem. Without hesitation Clem pulled the guy halfway out the window and punched him. When brought in front of the Commander, he was asked if he hesitated and Clem told him that he did not. He was let off with no disciplinary action because he did not hesitate. He reaction was reflexive and not thought through. Does this theory apply in the civilian world? One more point. I guess you can say Clem was open carrying in sorts because he was on duty as an MP at the time and he had just given the guy in the car a ticket.
 
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