INSTRUCTOR ARRESTED....needs to be more of this

[tuts40]

Did I miss something? What instructor thinks the basic CCW courses out there are so demanding that he/she feels the need to help students "pass"? If a person is so slow as to be unable or nearly unable to pass such a course then I'd hope they'd just stay home. As my kids would say: "OMG"! After all, the typical thug isn't gunna give you time to think about the "answers"...

 

[Tucker's Mom]

Will you also be offering classes in public speaking (for a fee, of course) so that we may get a permit to exercise our First Amendment rights, too?

Comeon...I took a 12 hour course that includes shooting in the range...it was very informative. We were with some others who were also taking classes as instructors and our instructor singled me and my husband to give us the shooting qualification while the others were handled by other instructors. It was almost a one-on-one. I loved it!

 

[Bttbbob]

Don't overlook what happened here. An Instructor gave a substandard course for less money. We have this problem in Florida a lot. Gun Shows do 1.5 hr courses for 50.00. It is a certificate mill. It makes Instructors that do the right thing struggle for business.

 

[tekhead1219]

When I took my initial CHL class, I was bored to tears. So much depends on how the information is presented. Keep the students input and discussion going and (in Texas) the 10 hrs. goes pretty quick. Might be the point of view though, then I was a student, now I'm the instructor. Always seem to have fun with class though. I heard on one instructor in the area giving original issue CHL100's for $45.00. If I find him, I'll turn him in!!

 

[nca_mm]

They should go back and recall all the students permits that took his class.

Ouch! You sure about that?

 

[Bozz]

Ouch! You sure about that?

Maybe allow them to come forward for a class meeting requirements before you revoke it.....because they weren't properly trained by this individual and didn't earn their certificate. Lives could be saved if they get proper training.

I am NOT saying they shouldn't be offered a good class gratis or something along those lines. Education is KEY. If they were near me I'd teach some of them for FREE and would bet some other instructors might do the same.

 

[gunscribe]

A few years ago in New Mexico two Instructors were arrested and convicted for providing substandard training in violation of the statutory required fifteen hours. Many of their classes were only seven hours and at least one was only four hours in length. Some of these classes did not even include the mandatory range qualifications.

Some of what they were convicted of included falsifying upwards of 500 documents.

They state sent suspension notices to everyone that took their classes with an explanation; Upon proof of satisfactory completion of the statutory requirements licenses would be reinstated.

The state agency that runs the NM CHL program, NMDPS CID, scheduled four classes in various parts of the state affected by this. It was taught by employees of NMDPS at no charge to any of the persons that had their CHL suspended.

I understand that in an effort to “speed up” reinstatement some “re-took” the class at their own expenses from other more reputable instructors.

This still remains a problem as a few other very politically connected instructors around the state are teaching a less than 12 hour class. Some of these instructors have been reported to NMDPS CID and to date nothing has been done about it.

 

[Bigcarlover]

Imposing time limits is stupid, especially when considering range time is included. It's takes far less time for 5 people to get through the material as opposed to 25 people. So if theres only a few students they have to fill the time. Maybe not the case this time, but hopefully the point is made.

 

[Bart Taylor]

Everyone who took the class new before going what was going on that's why they took his class. I went through a 12 hour class. Instruction time. Had a lawyer speak for 2 hrs. Range time. It was great

 

[rockygall]

I have to disagree with you. The students knew or should have known the class is required to be 8 hours. When they showed up and the class was less than an hour it is their responsibility to report it. Let's take this example; you go into a grocery store and check out when you get to the counter the cashier says I am going to not charge you for the meat so don't say anything to anyone. Once you leave the store you are stealing. By going to a class that is supposed to be 8 hours and it is only 1 you are stealing plain and simple. OK I know the argument is that the people were there to get their permit and they did not know the law. Well guess who's responsibility that is uh, the person getting the permit. Many people trust us instructors to give the the end all know all answers to all there questions but that is impossible to do. Many factors make it your responsibility; for starters it is you that is responisble for your actions and ignorance of the law is no excuse.( this is a big one because if ignorance was an excuse every criminal in the world would use that as a defense. "uh I never read the law so I didn't know it was illegal for me to break in to old lady Jones' house and steal all her stuff after I raped her and killed her." on to the next thing 8 hours is really not enough time to really teach every aspect of every portion of the law that has to be covered I always encourage my students to read the law o ntheir own periodically. And another reason I tell them to read it is because THE LAW CHANGES period If you take your CCW/CHP/CWP class and hold it for 10 years then get arrested for carrying a weapon that was legal then and not now the instructor is not nor should they be held accountable.

As for the "instructor" (and I am using the term loosely) his actions were of extremely ill repute. Not to mention really friggin' stupid. I would never do this even if it was against the law because some idiot will come into your class take the test then two weeks later shoot someone in a bar while he's drunk or something. When the cops come and arrest him they will ask where he took his CCW class and you bet your but he'll dime you out. I am an instructor in Missouri and I had a guy call me one time and ask if I would sign off on his sheet if he gave me some money he gave me some B.S. story about howhe has a Utah permit and wants to get his MO. I have a slight suspicion that someone was trying to set me up r it may have been an audit. I guess I passed I told the guy there was no way I was going to jeoperdize my ability to teach people because he didn't want to sit through an 8 hour class.

 

[FN1910]

My wife and daughter took the SC CWP training/certification class this past weekend. The total time for the class and range was actually around 13 hours. It was a long class that took place on Friday night and all day Saturday. Both talked about how much they enjoyed it and how much they learned. They also highly recommend this instructor over one that does the minimum just to get you certified. Neither my wife or daughter were experienced with guns and my wife has arthritis in her wrists so I was worried about her physical ability to pass. I gave her my P3AT to use and she scored 94% on the range test.

I would very much have hated it if they had gone to a class that lasted only one hour (just filling out the paperwork and taking fingerprints takes at least one hour) and learned nothing. These types of instructors don't care and are just in it for the money and should be arrested.

 

[irongoat]

Our classes here in Texas are 10 - 15 hours. I usually do mine in one, 10 hour day- it makes for a long day. But then it is over with. I think a 6-8 hour course would work better. It also depends on how big your class is. Mine are usually small- no more than around 8 ( have had 12) it makes it more personal and I get to see how everyone thinks and understands about firearms and the laws in Texas.

 

[rockygall]

I agree I try to keep my classes small. MO law allows me to have 40 in a class and 5 per range officer. But I tell people I will not put more than 15 in one class. I want people to learn from me they pay me money to teach them. As instructors it is our responsibility to teach the students new information, otherwise we reduce our selves to the same standards as say the safety inspection joke in MO. Everyone knows a place that you can go to and pay $20 as opposed to the normal $12 and you WILL pass. Not only is this practice dangerous it hurts business for legitimate shops.

 

[PattersonSafety]

We have had instructors like this in Missouri, they were running people through like cattle. A class that is suppose to be 8hrs was done in 4-5hrs, and didn't meet the shooting requirements. My classes are limited to 12 students, I feel that more than that and people are less likely to ask questions. I want to make sure everyone receives the full training that they paid for, and when people feel comfortable in a class they are more engaged and I always learn something from them.

 

[Danieljoe1]

Interesting, here in Nevada there is no requirement for how long the course is supposed to be. That is determined by the county sheriff who is supposed to sign off on the course material. So, you can go from Elko county to Eureka county and have two different versions of how long the class time is. Since there are 17 counties in Nevada, theoretically you can have 17 different answers for how long a class is and what constitutes pass\fail on the shooting part.

NRS 202.3653- NRS 202.369

 

[Steven Harder]

One of the things that bothers me here in Oregon is, you can take a class from the SO, then apply for your permit. The SO class is a couple hours in the classroom and that's it.

When I went through my CCW permit class, I chose to pay $40 more and take the class from R.E.A.C.T. Training Systems. It included classroom and range time and there were only 4 of us in the class. I really enjoyed the Instructor and his continuous stressing of safety at all times. 2 of the others in the class know me and the Instructor knew my background . . . he even apologized for rehashing things he knew I was well versed in, but stayed the course, as I viewed the course as a re-fresher and well worth my time to hear it all again.

My background . . . Northern Areas of Operations Specialist w/ small arms, in-direct fire, Medical, cold weather survival/tactics, communications, and explosives). 6th Army Composite Pistol Team, 6th Army Combat Pistol Team (EIC), 6th Army Combat Rifle Team, 6th USAR Combat Pistol Team, 6th USAR Combat Rifle Team, Team Captain and Shooting Coach of Combat Rifle and Combat Pistol Teams at both 6th Army and 6th USAR levels.

 

[FN1910]

@Steven Harder - I think you are right on with this as I am not a big advocate of extended range time for a CWP class but am an advocate of enough for someone to know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of and that they can come close to hitting what they aim at. There are lots of people that brag about how they can put 9 out of 10 inside the 10 ring at 25 yards but I would no longer trust them around a gun than a six year old with a marshmallow gun. In the classroom portion safety needs to be stressed and stressed again and then the laws concerning the use of a gun. You can read on this board constantly the age old myths about guns and shootings that will not seem to die. For instance how many times have you heard that if you shoot someone on your front porch you need to drag them into your house or the constant argument about getting sued for using hollow points.

And contrary to popular misconception on gun boards very few people who take a CWP class and get their permit will ever take another class. A large number will never shoot a gun again or if they do it will be very seldom.

 

[NCIC105]

Let the students attend a SLED taught class free...

 

[FN1910]

Let the students attend a SLED taught class free...

I started to say I was all for that then I thought about SLED instructors would be slanted toward either their feelings of what the law should be or what SLED thinks the law should be. Would you trust SLED to provide honest unbiased information about how to act and what you should do or not do. I do like the free part and think that some method to finance the classes to be taught for free should be arranged but I don't know that I would trust SLED or any other LEO agency to teach them and have complete control over the classes. Right now SLED has requirements of what must be covered but for the most part it is the extras that the instructors include that are valuable.

 

[NCIC105]

I see your point...I retired from LEO, and I must confess I know a lot of officers that will gladly give you're their opinion of the law and be wrong. I don't think it is intentional, just if the question is outside the daily dealings with statues.

Hell I've even done this a few times....When someone walks up and asks you rather than telling them you do not know; you give them your interpretation.

I was broken of this by a wise old Sargent one day when I gave bad advice. The Sargent embarrassed me but at least the citizen did not leave with my bad advice. From that point forward I would not give my opinion on any law but refer them to a Judge or Attorney.

I've even seen attorneys that can give bad advise...

I think the State should give these students some assistance...