Instructor Arrested and Charged

Yes they should have their certs revoked. He should never be allowed to instruct again. He knows better, the students know better and we all know better. Makes the rest of us look like asses to the media. Shame shame shame.
 
ohiocycler said:
Yes they should have their certs revoked. He should never be allowed to instruct again. He knows better, the students know better and we all know better. Makes the rest of us look like asses to the media. Shame shame shame.
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How many hours should be filled with the instructor rambling on reading from a script? How many hours should be dedicated to students answering question?

I'm just curious because I was the only person in my class due to cancellations and it may have been a tad shorter than it would have been with 10 people or more. If my class didn't take 8 hours should I have my license revoked even though I in some states my military service would qualify me? Even though I had to qualify every year with my side arm and my various firearms? I'm curious if I should be punished if the state said the class should be "8 hours" and it didn't run quite that long even though every single bit of info that would be covered in a bigger class was covered?


Most CCW classes don't cover clearing houses, moving under fire, evacuating a wounded soldier under fire, suppressive fire techniques, or any number of things that some of us should have had drilled into our heads in the military... but if state law says my class should be 8 hours and mine didn't last but 6 that my license should be pulled????

I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to listen to a bunch of stupid obvious question... but that's just me...
 
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
 
ohiocycler said:
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
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Luckily an 8 hour class wasn't an issue that I was asked or required to sign saying I'd attended. I just hate to see people punished for the short comings of another. For instance of a class, instructor takes your money, tells you if you want to get your license you gotta sign or not sign and not get your license... Seems to me that the students were victims in the situation just as much as they were wrong...
 
ohiocycler said:
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
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We all ready have the LAW, known as the second amendment, which says 8 hours is 8 hours of infringement too many. The rules HAVE to change because it never was supposed to be a privilege.
 
Hmmm. I think we are past arguing the 2nd amendment. The question is that if the students were told that he was creating a shortcut and that they were supposed to lie about it then it is wrong. We all have the right to bear arms.. We do not however have the right to conceal carry without the proper training and credentials. I think that there are a couple of issues here. I am an instructor who had to go through many many hours to get my certifications. I would not jeopardize my license to make a quick buck and put people out on the street with insufficient knowledge about safety and the law. It is however great to be an American. A lot of crap going through the house and senate that scares me, but I do uphold the law. It's just better in my personal situation.
 
While I hate to lose any qualified CC instructor, the key word is qualified. I don't believe he should ever be allowed to hold another class and I doubt if he will. Yes, the students knew it was wrong to take advantage of the situation, but they'd just paid $80 for the class. I imagine it was too tempting for some. I don't think any other instructor should give them free classes though, simply because they knew what they did was wrong.
I took a full 8 hour class and I learned all the basics. But that was about all I learned and my instructor was highly respected. I can't imagine that you could learn much in 3 hours, so I hate to see these students out running around with loaded weapons. Some of them are probably just like me, who didn't know that much about guns before the class. My father was a licensed gun dealer all his adult life, but my interest in guns was best described as indifferent till last December, before Sandy Hook.
 
ohiocycler said:
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
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It is a law that infringes on your Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Do you hold all your rights so casually?
 
Bttbbob said:
Charges against St. Louis County gun instructor put concealed-carry permits in doubt : News

Interesting read......Actually asked the students that had a 3 hr. course to claim 8 hrs. The students cannot claim they didn't know.

Should the state pull all students CCW's until they perform the mandatory 8 hrs?
Your thoughts?
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If the students in fact knew that the law required an 8 hour class, and were "qualified" by the instructor at the end of 3 hours, and asked to falsify the records, and then did falsify their records, then I think they are just as guilty as the instructor. Though I personally do not believe that Americans should be required to obtain a permit to CC in the first place, it unfortunately is the law in most States if someone wants to legally CC. With that said, I do believe an investigation should be launched against the instructors previous classes, and at the point that can be proven, any of the 1,770 who recieved less than the required hours and required training should be required to re-take the class in order for their permit to remain valid. However, they have already paid $$$, so it should be free to re-qualify.
 
As the article stated, New Mexico had a similar situation. I was caught up in that. NM requires a 15 hour course. The instructor told the students he was "cutting out the fat" and just teaching "what we needed to know". Now before you say we should have known better, that was discussed with the DPS at the retake, and this instructor was approved by the DPS to teach. We trusted that what and how he was teaching was state approved. He got to the point that you didn't even have to shoot and everyone got 100s.
The ironic thing is that I learned much more in this instructor's class than I did in the retake given by the DPS.
 
Just move to WA, pay your $52 and call it a day. No class required. Or OR where you can do a free class on line in 20 minutes.
 
ohiocycler said:
Yes they should have their certs revoked. He should never be allowed to instruct again. He knows better, the students know better and we all know better. Makes the rest of us look like asses to the media. Shame shame shame.
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If I were one of them and they tried getting my permit, I'd just say "it's just a card with some words and a picture. I had the right to bear arms before I ever took this class. You can revoke my card but my rights don't change. So in conclusion, kiss my ass!"
 
Firefighterchen said:
We all ready have the LAW, known as the second amendment, which says 8 hours is 8 hours of infringement too many. The rules HAVE to change because it never was supposed to be a privilege.
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And that's really what it has become. A privilege. Try getting a permit in a place like CA or NYC.
 
A few points:
- He should be prosecuted since he defrauded the governmental system
- The system is broken since it infringes upon the people's right to keep and bear arms
- Since it was a training program, he defrauded the students and should be prosecuted

From my own vantage point, I remember needing to take a course of "instruction" in order to get my non-resident UT permit. Everyone in the class knew it was bull-scheisse, but we went through it since that was the requirement. I find it hard to believe that no person out of almost 1800 who paid for instruction and didn't get it, wouldn't have complained about it to authorities. He got caught because someone ran to the police station directly after his class and the clerk noticed the time discrepancy. Crangle is either very unlucky, had a target on his back, or that clerk is one of the best ever.
 
ohiocycler said:
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
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Seriously???? Did you just post that keeping and bearing a firearm is a PRIVILEGE. You post elsewhere that you are instructor. Do you instruct your students that this is a privilege for them? How dare you spew your filth in this country. We are guaranteed by our Creator that we have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms and that right above all the other rights shall not be infringed, and you come in here and say it is a privilege???

Maybe all that "training" to become an instructor has skewed your mind as to what is true or not. The fact remains, permits are an infringement. Requirements to get permits are an infringement upon the infringement.
 
That is the problem with forcing people to take a class for a ccw in the first place. Are they any more prepared than a person that open carries a firearm. Maybe the solution would be a question like...do you know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of and do you know what causes that. In Virginia a 19 dollar internet class and 20 question test that takes 15 minutes to accomplish was all that was needed. Does that make me a bigger risk than someone taking a 10 hour class...no it makes me smarter for living in Virginia where we are treated as if we are adults not children getting behind the steering wheel for the first time. I grew up with guns and Virginia treats us like we have firearm experience. What's next...twenty hour class for shotguns?
 
ohiocycler said:
I hear you. But. It is the LAW. Your military service is commendable, but even with prior service you still have to apply for your CCW. I think the difference is that the students were told to lie and they did. If we do not do this process by the books ( rambling and all...lol) the rules will change and no one will have this privilege.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you. Since the 10th Amendment says that the states have no jurisdiction on anything granted to the federal government (i.e. the 2nd), then how is it that all these state laws regarding gun rights and permits are not unconstitutional? Some states don't allow CC, some require a permit, some permits accept military training and some don't, some require an eye exam. My point is that it is a right not granted by the state, so how can they add stipulations? IMHO there should be NO state gun laws or permits. It is constitutional right, and ANY regulation limiting that right is an infringement. I don't think the founders considered banning felons from owning guns, because they knew how to deal with felons back then...

In the instance of the training (or lack thereof) I think that simply trusting that anyone legal to buy a gun is going to be safe with it is ridiculous. Not everyone's dad teaches them about safety, and not everyone has had military training. I don't think licenses or permits are important, but I think the training is imperative! I think "Fitch said he’s hoping other instructors will voluntarily offer free classes to Crangle’s graduates" is stupid. How about you make him pay back everyone that he shortchanged so they don't have to pay twice for the training? Crangle needs to have his permits revoked, have his license to instruct revoked. He's a crook, plain and simple. He charged a fee for a service he did not provide.
 
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