Indianapolis CCW-Permit Denied, Looking to Appeal

[ConfusedHoosier]

Heyas!

Long story short, last year I applied to renew my CCW Permit and was denied.

And seeing as I can't legally carry under my Florida Non-Resident CCW Permit, because Indiana state doesn't recognize any other state's permit for Indiana Residents, I'm looking to appeal. (Though since the denial came in January, I suspect I'd have to reapply and appeal if/when denied again.)

I've no felonies or anything akin to that, the issue comes down to the fact that I've seen a psychologist. They are supportive of my permit application, but at their own lawyer's advice are unwilling to risk their career and livelihood on giving me a legal endorsement. (I've a diagnosis of depression secondary to chronic physical degenerative ailments and ADD. I am not a sociopath, I've no criminal record. I've had two speeding tickets my entire life and no run ins with police or the law. I'm seriously not unstable, I'm not a sociopath, I've no violence in my past. I can't stress those points enough..)

So I'm left in an awkward position. I've been told that the psychiatric care question really isn't intended to flag you for once a month checkups, but its too late to change my answer.

Anyhow! I've two questions.

First, does anyone know any Indianapolis-area lawyers who specialize in, or are at least familiar with, CCW Permit Appeals?

Second, has anyone been through the appeals process before? Or can anyone guide me to some information regarding the appeals process?

I'd greatly appreciate any information anyone can provide me. My apologies if this information is laying around the site and I've overlooked it. I've looked everywhere I can think to look and have come up empty handed.

Thanks in advance,
ConfusedHoosier

 

[CathyInBlue]

I experienced the same thing you're going through. Went to a pshrink for my ADD/OCD and the ISPD used that against me to deny my lifetime license.

You know what? Lie. They lied to us. We'll lie to them. They lied when they assured us in law that such voluntary psychiatric care would not be used against us to deny us our Art. 1 Sec. 32 rights to KBA. We'll lie to them and claim to have never done it in the first place.

When I secure my funding for school for the next two years, I'll put the hundred dollars or so into reupping my license and when I do, they'll be told nothing of my patronage of psychiatric services.

 

[ConfusedHoosier]

No Dice, I'm Afraid

Well, they say misery loves company but I’d rather be in this boat alone than have other people going through this mess.

And I wish I had something great to tell you, but I’ve only bad news to bear.

Lying on the application isn’t going to help you. I’ll even tell you why, but the story might get a little long.

In my post I over simplified a bit as I was just looking for lawyers and information in general, so going into great detail wouldn’t have helped. I was worried my lengthy writing would keep people from getting to my questions, so I went with the short and sweet method.

I’ve applied for a CCW Permit three times.

The first time I applied for a permit there was a great confusion on the psychological healthcare question. No one could tell me what they were looking for and I wasn’t sure how to answer. Cops, secretaries at the City-County Building, other fellow citizens couldn’t agree on whether or not a once a month (Or so) appointments were what the question was asking about. Some said that any psychological healthcare ever was counted, be it a once over as a child during your parents divorce or annual involuntary treatment at the hospital with constant suicide watch, they both are psychological healthcare and you must answer yes. Most said they didn’t know at all, many feared that giving me the wrong advice would lead them to ending up in a legal case. Others, still, said that the question was meant for serious psychological matters, involuntary care or extended voluntary inpatient care. That anything outpatient really wasn’t the object of the question.

I erred on the side of caution, or so I told myself, and said I had psychological healthcare. And, as we’ve both found out, a Yes on that question is an instant denial. For some reason or another, I did not appeal. To this day, I don’t know why.

It was two years or so before I applied again. As time had changed, I’d met more people know knowledgable than I so far as law enforecement and the like goes. I was told by a few people that once a month psychological visits does not count. Period. I wish I’d taken down names, but when you ask so many people the same questions..its easy to lose track of who said what. Regardless of that, I was told to reapply and check No on that question.

Well wouldn’t you know it, I got accepted! Of course, five or so years ago they didn’t have lifetime permits, only four year ones. I was a happy camper and all was well.

Until last year when my four year permit expired.

Nothing has changed, I’ve had nothing more than once a month appointments, no unstable events, no acting out, no violence, no involuntary care, no suicide watch, just those dozen or less appointments in a year.

So I reapplied and checked No again. I thought all was well, but I noticed my application was taking an absurdly long amount of time to process. I think I applied in August and wasn’t officially denied until January.

And my denial was two fold; I was denied because:
1) I lied on my CCW Permit Application (And thusly committed perjury!) and,
2) Have a propensity for emotional or unstable behavior.

This, obviously, wasn’t what I was expecting. So a few phone calls and transfers later, along with some miscommunications, and I was told the reason for this unforunate happening:

Indiana holds onto all CCW Permit Applications. I don’t know for how long, perhaps forever. And when I applied for a renewal they had looked back a few years and found my initial application in which I said I had received treatment.

You see, my second application, the one they had approved 5 years ago, was a mistake. They shouldn’t have accepted my application at all, the state had made a grave error.

I didn’t know what to do at the time, I didn’t then and still don’t have much money to mount a legal defense team to appeal. And, I admit, I was afraid. I was afraid that if I rocked the boat they’d follow up on the perjury charges. If I didn’t have money to help me through an appeal over a CCW permit I surely didn’t have the money to fight off a felony charge. Simply saying that I’m innocent (And I swear, I am) wouldn’t have cut it.

So far, though, the state hasn’t charged me with perjury. And now with time to reflect, with crime in my area rising, I want to get my permit. I’d like to clear my name, too.

Anyway, the lesson of my experience is that lying won’t help.

Not that I’d consider it lying. I was last told and still believe that once a month psychological treatment isn’t what they mean by psychological healthcare. I made a mistake the first time through, I guess I didn’t understand the question and that has forever marked me as a threat to society in their eyes.

I wish someone could have explained things to me when I first applied so I wouldn’t have made that mistake. I wish that instead of fearing lawsuits or losing their job, someone would have helped me. And I sincerely wish I could have told you all this before you applied to save you the hassle, because no one should have to deal with this foolishness.

Maybe someone here can help us, maybe they’ve some experience about how to deal with the appeals process and just how much of an uphill battle we face. I’d appreciate it beyond all words.
At the worst, I’ll keep this thread going as my ordeal plays out.

In the end, all I can wish you is luck.

That, and tell you that I know its unfair. I’ve never committed a misdemeanor muchless a felony, I don’t think I’ve ever had more than 2 points taken off my driver’s license. I carried safely for four years without a single incident and I’m liscensed by the most recognized state in the country to carry a variety of concealed weapons.

Unfortunately, our state has an oddly phrased question that casts an overly large net to disqualify honest people from practicing their right to keep and bear arms.

Though I’d like to close with a bit of hope. There is always the chance that the appeals hearing isn’t so bad, that they won’t rubberstamp your application with a denial for the slightest reason.

And until I know for sure, all I can do is keep my fingers crossed.

Best of luck,
ConfusedHoosier

 

[CathyInBlue]

I know the appeals process is not all that. It's not like a court proceeding with lawyers and such. There's a civilian board that hears them and the state can send personnel to argue the state's side that your denial was appropriate and you can bring in what and who you want to help you argue that it should be overturned and if you make even a moderately compelling case, they'll overturn it.

Now, I'm not sure what they would do in the case of a lifetime license. Maybe they'll say you can have the four year license that you have to reup periodicly, but not the lifetime license.

I'm sure there's a law on the books that explicitly states that voluntary patronage of mental health counselling is not legal grounds for denial of firearms licensure. I'm not on a question to find and cite that law.

The fear of losing my RKBA was one of the things that kept me from seeking counselling for so long, and now it looks like those fears are being realized.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about any perjury charge. The question itself is unconstitutionally vague. In order to prove that either answer was false, they would have to provide proof in court as to what the question actually means. Also, it's only perjury if you KNEW what it actually means and deliberately answered incorrectly. When you answered it the first time, you had one understanding and answered the question truthfully yes. When you answered if the second time, you had a different understanding and answered truthfully no. They would have to argue that the first understanding you used was the legally correct one and you should have known the second was not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Clarification_of_prohibited_persons <-- that's the first pass list of people who ARE prohibitted from OWNING a firearm, but that's from 1986. I'm sure there was a Bush II era law that explicitly listed people who ARE NOT prohibitted from CARRYING.