Indiana Law regarding LEO demand to see PPP

[CathyInBlue]

[Cross-posted with LEO Encounters]

One issue that I've never had a satisfactory answer to is, when confronted by a LEO in Indiana, when may he demand to see my Pink Slip, when am I required to produce it, and under what conditions is he permitted to confiscate it and/or my sidearm, all absent any credibly claimed PC or RAS?

I'm concerned about OCing and having some skittish Liberal-alike call the cops and then getting the rookie who doesn't know the laws regarding carrying a weapon in public in Indiana. Problem is, I, myself, don't know the law (administrative or otherwise) regarding such demands as those outlined above. Any help would be appreciated, but only posts citing the Indiana Code will be taken seriously.

Thank you.

 

[Almost_Blameless]

read the following.....

Indiana Concealed Carry Permit Information

 

[CathyInBlue]

Yeah. Been there. Done that. Got the tee-shirt.

Do I need to inform Law Enforcement that I am carrying a concealed weapon in Indiana?
... A law enforcement officer does have the right to inspect the permit. ...

How? Why? Where is the law which says this? Court case citation? This is why I requested authoritative citations.

 

[Almost_Blameless]

I don't understand why you would think you need a court case citation to support the written regulations that you DO have to show your permit when asked, and they (LEO's) do have the right to inspect your permit....the written regs however do NOT require you to automatically inform LEO's because they approach you ... its just suggested as a courtesy.... ?yes?

 

[Treo]

[only posts citing the Indiana Code will be taken seriously.

So, you won't put the T & E into looking up the law yourself but you expect us to do it for you?

 

[CathyInBlue]

@ Almost_Blameless:
Okay. You say there are written regs. Where can I read them?

@ Treo:
That's the point. I've put in the T & E and I can't find them, hence my request for a strike with a clue stick by someone who has.

 

[Treo]

I can't find them[/u], hence my request for a strike with a clue stick by someone who has.

That is different my appologies

 

[Almost_Blameless]

OK, I do believe you have me somewhat confused on this now (and hell if I didn't think I had it figured....before we started this...) but anyhow here is a page from Indiana.gov of some specific gun regs, although I don't see them directly addressing your specific query(s) Link Removed

Now, on the second page there is SOME specifics about how your permit can be retained or taken if you have become an 'non-proper person' Link Removed

Under the first page headers there is one subject about returning a confiscated weapon, or, having it destroyed if 'you have become or are now deemed to be a dangerous person.... so, it DOES sortta look like its written so as to allow LEO's a wide girth in how they want to proceed....with their action/direction being deemed warranted (or not) by a judge, and then the judge's decision could have your weapon returned to you or destroyed.....

I'm guessing that you're not gonna find much relief/finalization to your original question, but I do think that a person would need one really slick lawyer to help pull out of any hole that person slipped into concerning an unfriendly encounter with your O.C. vs LEO that didn't like seeing you O.C.ing...

ANYHOW, I THINK that technically OC is good for going with an Indiana permit, as the permit simply states you are permitted to have a handgun, and doesn't actually define that you are required to keep it concealed.....

WHAT A BRAIN STRAIN....

Good luck if you find yourself in one of those holes... as for me, I'll stick with CC

 

[spinnercj8]

if I get pulled over by any LEO I will keep my hands on the wheel and let them know when they get to the car that I am carrying and where it is so there are no surprises! am I required to do this..No I do it out of respect for them as I think everyone should!!! as far as an Indiana permit goes it is a carry permit open or otherwise!

 

[CathyInBlue]

Not remotely on topic.

The scenario described was not driving, so such laws are moot.

The scenario described was method-of-carry neutral, so stating once again what my Indiana pink slip permits is also moot.

The issue is, once a police officer knows I have a firearm on my person, the method by which he comes into such knowledge is not germane to the discussion either, does he have legal authority to compel me to produce my pink slip?

 

[spinnercj8]

Not remotely on topic.

The scenario described was not driving, so such laws are moot.

The scenario described was method-of-carry neutral, so stating once again what my Indiana pink slip permits is also moot.

The issue is, once a police officer knows I have a firearm on my person, the method by which he comes into such knowledge is not germane to the discussion either, does he have legal authority to compel me to produce my pink slip?

In answer to that question, yes if they ask you have to show it! it is proof that you have the legal right to carry!

 

[CathyInBlue]

That makes no sense. I only have to follow the LAWFUL orders of a police officer. If he has no legal authority to compel me to produce it, then his demand is not a lawful order, and I don't have to follow it.

To say that a police officer in a jurisdiction with licensed OC could, upon seeing someone OCing, demand to see the attendant license would be analogous to the same officer stopping random cars, demanding to see the person's driver's license in order to determine that they are legally licensed to drive and are not committing the crime of driving without a license. Manifestly, the latter is not legal conduct for a police officer. I'm looking for tangible evidence that the former IS legal conduct for a police officer. Absent any such evidence, the default condition is that it is NOT legal, because absent affirmative authority to do a thing, the government can't do that thing.

In order to so compel me, they would have to have Probable Cause (PC) or barring that level, at least Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (RAS) that I either have committed, am committing, or am about to commit a crime. The mere presence of the firearm without immediate production of an Indiana pink slip does not raise to the level of RAS, so it damn skippy ain't PC.

 

[spinnercj8]

Well with that attitude you feel free to open carry and when asked for your permit go right ahead and tell them they don't have the right to ask and see where that gets you!! You may not find it in writing somewhere but if you are walking down the street carrying a weapon that is probable cause to ask! but keep saying the word "Demand" which to me sounds like you are looking for an argument or worse! so feel to argue away and have fun with that!!

 

[CathyInBlue]

if you are walking down the street carrying a weapon that is probable cause to ask!

No. It's really not, but if it were, that fact too would be codified in law somewhere that could be cited.

So, getting back to the point of this thread, either cite the source that claims merely carrying a weapon is PC to confront a person, or cite the source that gives the authorities THE authority to demand my pink slip and coerce me to produce it.

 

[jabatam]

This is as far as I'm going to help...all the gun laws are there

Link Removed

 

[spinnercj8]

you are an Idiot and not worth the argument! if you are so dead set on confronting the police on the right to DEMAND to see your permit then stroll your happy ass in to a police station and I am quit sure there will be more than enough Law Enforcement to answer your question!

 

[CathyInBlue]

@ jabatam:
Thank you. At least that is a state source that makes the claim in Link Removed page 9 that the police have the right to inspect my permit. I have a question into the ISP's e-mail contact asking THEM for a citation of the legal authority to do so.

@ spinnercj8:
The point is not for me to go out to confront the police. The point is to shut the police down when they want to confront me without PC or even RAS.

 

[Hammerhead]

I believe that Cathy got her information since this thread has pretty well died (she probably got it elsewhere) but I want to clear something up so that people don't go around misinformed.

In Indiana, it is a crime to carry a handgun. One of the exceptions (positive defense) to that crime is being a person who has been granted a license to carry. In order to not be charged with the crime of illegally carrying a handgun, without being a LEO, judge, etc. (IC 35-47-2-2), you have to be properly licensed. The IC used to state that you had to carry your license, however it now only states that you must be licensed.

If you are stopped by a LEO, say walking down the street, and he asks to see your license, you do not have to show it specifically right then and there. You can and probably will be arrested and will then eventually have to show your license to the prosecutor. The record of your arrest will be destroyed. If you really feel this is worth the hassle. (IC 35-47-2-24)

Should you be stopped, however, it benefits you to show your license to the LEO. Not only because it negates the need to get arrested and play that stupid game, but because it also ends the further inquiry into your firearms. How, you might ask? Via the Indiana Supreme Court decision in State v. Richardson.

So, here's the scenario. You, walking down the street. LEO stops you and asks if you have a license for your sidearm. You say, "Why yes, officer," and present it to him. He then verifies the validity of said license. (You do have a valid lifetime LTCH, don't you?) He then returns your license and you both go about your business.

Now, there are a few extras. "But the LEOs always ask for your ID too," you say. True, but as you are not being stopped for an infraction or ordinance violation, you are not required to ID yourself (IC 34-28-5-3 & -3.5). "But I also want to know if they can disarm me." No, they're not supposed to without good reason. This good reason is that they must be able to articulate in front of a judge that you were a "dangerous person" (IC 35-47-14-3). In the above scenario, you have not displayed any indication that you are dangerous. You have answered their question and provided your license. You are standing there calmly and silently.

Aha, you think, they can Terry Stop you. Again, no. Terry requires not only armed and dangerous, but evidence of having, are, or going to be committing a crime. Just armed isn't PC or RAS for a Terry Stop.

So calmly handing over your LTCH and waiting silently and paitently for them to verify it should be all that happens. If not, they're violating your rights, and several different Indiana laws and case laws. You do have your pocket digital recorder running, do you not?

IANAL, TINLA, IDNSATHIELN

 

[golocx4]

Well put Hammerhead.
My 2 cents.
If I am legally carrying a firearm, (and the keyword is legally) then I am not doing anything wrong. If I am not doing anything wrong, there is no way for LE to have PC to ask me anything. Driving a car is totally different situation. Driving is not a right. You must be licensed to drive. If my tires touch the yellow line or my license plate light is out, then yes they Police have the PC to detain me.
They can then demand that I show that I am a legal driver and if they observe other suspicious behaviour, like the smell of alcohol, or burning vegetative matter, or slurred speech, they can now proceed with further PC for other crimes.
When you are on the side of the road and there is a Squad Car with lights flashing behind you, the officer is not your friend.
Respect the officer, show your driver license, don't make small talk. Sign the ticket. You don't have to say anything as long as you are not doing anything wrong.