Inability to legally carry on federal property

S

SmiddySW

New member
K, so we're not allowed to carry on federal property like USPS, military installation, VA hospital & a plethora of other government buildings.

Ridiculous!

I wish to hell some legislation would go up to change that.

IF a place has armed security, then I'm more "ok" with not being armed. But some of the restricted government buildings do not, like the US Post Offices, or if they do, they stay hidden.

IMO, all it does is create a "gun free zone" where the real dangerous people have easier targets if they decide to strike.

I know there has been some legislation recently about active duty military being more easily able to carry concealed, but that doesn't make much sense to me either. If I'm active duty, I should be allowed, no required, to be armed at all times, open or concealed. I mean is the 'sign up' check to enter service not stringent enough, or weapons training not adequate? Seriously, to me an unarmed soldier is a civilian being forced to play "dress up."

Am guessing active duty personnel are hesitant to raise a stink about this because it could upset those in command.

Just a thought.....
 
Things are starting to change on military installations. It is starting to be left up to the base commanders whether or not carrying on those bases are allowed.
 
Of course, installation commanders are usually pretty high ranking generals. By that time, most have become indoctrinated into the political correctness of today's military. None of them want to have their next promotion damaged by an incident involving a death from a negligent discharge, etc., so it's unlikely that many will allow troops to carry on post.
 
Maybe in small installations, but go to any major post and it will be a much higher ranking officer.
 
RossA said:
Maybe in small installations, but go to any major post and it will be a much higher ranking officer.
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Almost all the installations I've been at had O-6 (AF Colonels) commanders. Wright-Patt is rank heavy and is the only base I've even seen a general.

The deployed wing I was attached to during Desert Storm was under the command of an O-6 as well.

You say "Post," so are you talking Army? Just curious.


But about them and their decisions on the topic, I'd estimate them to be very hesitant. Base/post commanders I'd think are usually close to retirement and possibly looking at political options, therefore less willing to risk having negative incidents linked to their command.

What do you think on that!


USAF(Ret)
 
Yes, "post" is an Army term. We don't have bases, we have posts.
Anywhere you have a division stationed you have a two star and a couple of one stars.
 
Personally, I find the US Army Corp of Engineers regulations to be bothersome. I can hunt on Corps of Engineers land, but once hunting season is over I'm prohibited from possessing any firearm, bow and arrow, BB gun, etc. So for 5 months it's ok, then the next 7 it's not. That doesn't make any sense.

I'm very rarely near any other federal property.
 
On Army Bases, the Installation Commander is usually an 0-6 even if there are General Officers on the base. Some bases are starting to allow ONLY those that actually live on the base carry. No civilians are allowed unless they are employed in base security.
 
Commanding Officers of aircraft carriers are also O-6 and most commanding officers of submarines, including ballistic missile submarines carrying nuclear ICBMs are O-5. There may be Generals and Admirals on bases and posts who are in charge of larger HQ commands - but the vast majority of the commanders of the installation itself will be an O-6.
 
The commanding officers at the major installations of San Diego, Norfolk and Pearl Harbor are Navy captains.

When I was stationed at Naval Air Station Pensacola, FL, the commanding officer of the installation was a captain. The tenant command to which I was assigned on NAS was a headquarters command, commanded by a vice admiral. In our command we had at least 30 captains on staff.

It would almost be an insult to an admiral to be assigned duty as a commanding officer of a shore station.
 
Waffles said:
On Army Bases, the Installation Commander is usually an 0-6 even if there are General Officers on the base. Some bases are starting to allow ONLY those that actually live on the base carry. No civilians are allowed unless they are employed in base security.
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Most posts I served on had divisional units, commanded by a MG and two BGs, Assistant Division Commanders. The Installation Commander was an 0-6, and was not part of the division. That was standard for many years. Regardless on the command structure at any installation, carrying of personal weapons on post, IWB, OWB, or otherwise was forbidden. It has only been the last few years that on-post carry has become an issue because of the increase in terroristic activity. Personally, I would be all for carrying there but, having experienced how things were many years ago, I can say there was not as much danger of harm then as is being bandied around now. Without weapons, there was still a modicum of crime on-post but not to the degree that couldn't be handled by the Military Police and, in some instances, civilian contracted law enforcement personnel. Obviously, things have changed now.

I am fully aware of all the arguments for authorizing the carry of weapons on installations but I seriously doubt that you will ever see it happen. The command structures will always worry about the possibility of increased crime and possible killings of, and by, military personnel. Regardless of one's opinion on the subject, you will have to admit the sad changes in our society have infiltrated the military to a degree and are a cause for concern. However, there is a dreaded syndrome within the military which has a stronger effect the higher you go up in the chain of command. It is called "Cover Your Azz Syndrome." Those who are affected by it are deathly afraid of making a decision which may get them in trouble with their superiors.....all the way to Washington. Believe me, discharging or using a weapon in any manner on post will cause an instant rise in the pucker factor and tremendous fear of repercussions.
 
Waffles said:
On Army Bases, the Installation Commander is usually an 0-6 even if there are General Officers on the base. Some bases are starting to allow ONLY those that actually live on the base carry. No civilians are allowed unless they are employed in base security.
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See there's an issue as I see it. I have a military ID and a CC license, so it would just make sense that I be allowed to carry, say to the commissary to get groceries.

I realize not all personnel are qualified with a sidearm, but it seems the carry license would suffice. Hell, even if a standardized class were required for base security to sign off I'd be ok with it.


I can go on base, purchase a gun and ammo, but am then escorted to my car and ordered to leave the property. With the exception of random searches, it'd be very easy to enter armed. But one search can score you a federal felony, whatever the hell thats called(?). I'm not an attorney nor am I very familiar with different charges from personal experience.

Even if all base personnel were armed I'd be ok with not carrying because I'm pretty sure I can trust them if my butt needs defended.


USAF(Ret)
 
At my base LEOSA can carry on base now with an application of course. As a CCW holder I would be happy with at a minimum being able to store my firearm in my car while at work. I live 30 mins from base and going home to get my firearm before going places burns some gas for sure.
 
Back to the original question - I feel that those federal offices and federally controlled lands are THE PEOPLES' PLACES, they belong to us all. They are not the property of some bureaucrat or official. Any federal place (with just a few exceptions, like prisons and court ROOMS) where the public may go, should not be prohibited places.

As to military bases/posts, I share Sinlessearth's desire to at least be able to store my gun before entering the base. So that I don't have to be disarmed all day if I must at some point go on base for 15 minutes.
 
SmiddySW said:
See there's an issue as I see it. I have a military ID and a CC license, so it would just make sense that I be allowed to carry, say to the commissary to get groceries.

I realize not all personnel are qualified with a sidearm, but it seems the carry license would suffice. Hell, even if a standardized class were required for base security to sign off I'd be ok with it.


I can go on base, purchase a gun and ammo, but am then escorted to my car and ordered to leave the property. With the exception of random searches, it'd be very easy to enter armed. But one search can score you a federal felony, whatever the hell thats called(?). I'm not an attorney nor am I very familiar with different charges from personal experience.

Even if all base personnel were armed I'd be ok with not carrying because I'm pretty sure I can trust them if my butt needs defended.


USAF(Ret)
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Interesting. At Ft. Jackson, they have the usual signage at the gates on what you can;t have, do, etc. However, at the Commissary they have the standard No Concealed Weapons Allowed. This is the only facility with this type of sign. It's not at the PX, or other such facilities.
 
SmiddySW said:
Almost all the installations I've been at had O-6 (AF Colonels) commanders. Wright-Patt is rank heavy and is the only base I've even seen a general.

The deployed wing I was attached to during Desert Storm was under the command of an O-6 as well.

You say "Post," so are you talking Army? Just curious.


But about them and their decisions on the topic, I'd estimate them to be very hesitant. Base/post commanders I'd think are usually close to retirement and possibly looking at political options, therefore less willing to risk having negative incidents linked to their command.

What do you think on that!


USAF(Ret)
Click to expand...
All major Naval bases I have been to have O-6's in the job. It is typically a ticket punching job (or end of the line job for some......) after a Command at Sea (for most communities but not all) to select for Flag Officer. Most one and two stars are Pentagon staffers, Joint Service or NATO component Commanders, in service component Commanders (SUBPAC, SURFLANT etc...), or regional Commanders. Even Squadron Commanders on bases that have operational squadrons attached typically have Commodores which is an O-6 with a title. Aircraft Carrier COs are O-6's as well as the ships Reactors Officer and I think the CAG. The Carrier group itself is a Flag job though. Clear as mud.

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If anyone remembers, the no guns on any federal property resulted from some nut of a postal employee going to work and killing coworkers some years back. As if he, like any other nut or criminal, would be worried about a gun law violation. Just another knee-jerk political response which had no effect at all on actually solving the problem, but made people who are automatically scared to death of the idea of a gun feel warm and fuzzy.

The no guns on military installations except assigned weapons while on duty has been around forever, with some exceptions for certain ranks keeping a gun in on post family quarters.

The big problem is federal facilities like VA hospitals or VA regional offices which have absolutely no nearby parking other than the lots on the facilities. Say you live 40 miles away from a VA medical facility you have to visit regularly. The law says "on or in federal property", not "in federal buildings." So the second you cross onto the property in your car you're commiting a federal crime if you have your firearm. Apparently, you're supposed to stop on the street and hide your gun in a bush or something. This law needs to be changed to allow CCW holders or, in states where you don't need a CCW to have a gun in the car anyone, to have a weapon securely locked in their vehicle in the parking lot of a federal property providing they have a legitimate reason to visit the facility and the gun being in the car is in compliance with state laws concerning guns in vehicles. In a state like Utah, on any given day at any time within normal business hours there are probably 50 or more patients at the VAMC and/or vets at the VARO breaking federal law by having a gun locked in their car even though that gun is legally in the car according to state law, simply because there is literally no place to park anywhere near those facilities except the facility parking lots, which are federal property, and the vast majority of vets at the SLC VAMC and VARO live many miles from Salt Lake City.
 
I dont know if its still the same or not (havent needed to do it in a long time) but we used to be able to go places like VA, Government building etc and tellem you carry and then lock up your sidearm in there armory
 
PhillySoldier said:
I dont know if its still the same or not (havent needed to do it in a long time) but we used to be able to go places like VA, Government building etc and tellem you carry and then lock up your sidearm in there armory
Click to expand...
This all depends on the base and their policies. Every base is different. Not sure about the VA.
 
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