If not sheepdog, then what?


BlackieChan

New member
I would like to just sketch a hypothetical situation and see where people stand.

From the sheepdog thread, it is obvious that there are some strong reasons for and against identifying with that term. I did accept it but maybe I don't have the same understanding of its meaning as others do.

Personally, if I was to hear gunshots, in the middle of town for instance, I would call the police and go the other way. I am not the law, I would probably be a liability if I was get involved.

What if I saw someone getting held up on the street, say if I just turned the corner, noticed the incident, and no one noticed me. I think I would call the police, but remain present in case the worst should happen for the victim and they get injured.

These situations are astronomically improbable where I live and based on where I travel, but they are still worthwhile to consider for myself.

I think that a situation where I would intervene where I didn't necessarily face imminent danger to myself is if someone was being raped, or assaulted and they were the obvious victim. I suppose the most black and white instance would be a damsel in distress scenario, a strictly helpless victim where the aggressor is obvious.

I wouldn't just take careful aim and shoot, that would still be a last resort, but I couldn't sit by or run away from a situation like that. I would feel compelled to act. I am sure that others would feel the same way, but I also think that others would have a different approach than mine. I am extremely interested in how my fellow usacarry'ers would react to these situations.

Here is a story that some of you may have heard. This is why I feel like I have a duty to help (hopefully) those in need, those in imminent peril. I feel this duty because there are many people who would completely ignore the situation and the opportunity to save an innocent life .

There was an incident in NY, NY where a woman was being murdered down on the street at night next to crowded apartment buildings. The screaming went on for quite a long time. Not only did no one stick their head out the window to see what the hell was happening (I have never been to NY but I think that could be dangerous in and of itself), but nobody even called the police. Why? People who had heard the murder take place were questioned why they didn't call the police, the typical response was that they assumed someone else had already done so.

Are we really so apathetic to a fellow human's suffering?

This anecdote is an example of why I feel compelled to help other. If not specifically in a time of mortal peril, then simply when I see someone has a flat tire, when there is no first responder at the scene of an accident, when someone has the hood of their car up in a parking lot. It could be dangerous talking to strangers, but I think that a lot of people are pretty much normal and not out to kill and steal.

Anyways,
what I just wrote is not all inclusive, there is definitely something I excluded or overlooked. Ask yourself before you point them out if they will contribute to the substance of this forum. And again, if you would post how you would react to these hypotheticals and what you think of the last true story, I will be well gratified and I think that the ensuing conversation will be quite interesting.

Thanks for reading!
 

Garathorn

New member
Each person has to determine in their own minds what they are prepared to do. There are repercussions for ANY action AND for innaction. Living with the thought that you could have done something might, in the long run, be worse than being entangled in some red tape for a few months...or even years. Are you willing to risk your life in a given situation? You must determine your values now. There won't be time later. And, whatever you choose is Your business...no one else's. There will be armed citizens that are strictly SELF defense/escape (even leaving friends and family standing in harms way), and there will be those who are Gung-Ho/Hero-wanna-bes shooting before thinking (I call them Defendants) and ALL points in between. Decide now. Or don't, and leave the pistol at home. But that choice is all part of the great Freedoms of this excellent country. Let's all work to keep those freedoms.
 

Punch

New member
I pretty much agree with Garathorn, but may explain it a little differently. I believe that as an armed citizen, I have the duty to study my craft to the best of my ability. The fact is that my pistol cannot only protect me, but it can harm others. There is nothing wrong with running scenarios through your head and planning for how you would react. If my own life (or others that I am supposed to protect) is in danger, I can accept some risks that I may not be able to accept if I am helping someone else. It is bad enough to have to explain why I shot the wrong person when I believed that I was in danger. It is infinitely worse to have to explain why you shot the wrong person when you got involved in something that was not your fight. If you:

1) Know for sure who is the victim and who is the agressor, and
2) Know for sure that you can positively affect the outcome by your actions, and
3) Know for sure that you will not make the situation worse or put more people in danger,

then you should probably intervene. However, it has been my experience that it very difficult to be sure of even one of the above variables in a real life encounter that does not directly involve danger to you. Being sure of all three is highly unlikely. But if you are sure, then act. Basically my "anti-sheepdog" stance does not come from some deep seated hatred for mankind, but rather a combination of:

1) my disgust for those who will not help themselves, yet expect others to intervene for them, and
2) my experience that shows certainty of the previous three variables is rare.
 
BlackieChan, I grew up in NY and I remember that story. I was a kid when it happened. People heard her screams and closed their windows not wanting to get involved. I remember asking my father how can that be? How can people have such little love for their fellow man. I remember being told, you have a choice, I will bring you up to never be the wolf but to also never be the sheep. Some people have to be the sheepdog. I think the world is in the shape it is in because of mankinds lack of love for one another. I like you will sit in the back of the bus with my eyes wide open and hope I can enjoy the ride, but if I am needed be there.
 

walt629

New member
I can't comment on any of scenarios you state. What I can comment on with direct knowledge of is how the vast number of Sheeple take the attitude; 'No good deed goes un-punished'. Lived in a people tower environment for some time and the majority of the citizens just didn't want to get involved. Period. Their society made them so paranoid that they hide form the obvious. Now I live in the 'Burbs and see the same attitude out here. Everyone want to keep to their own and not get involved with others plight.

I am one of those people that will call the Local LED if I think something is out of kilter but I have to echo Punch. I won't jump into someone else's situation up to my arm pits when they set them self up to be a victim? Harsh? Kind of. But a valid point of view, I believe.
 

Anubis

New member
No situation is ever as simple as we imagine. Even the infamous Kitty Genovese murder was not a simple case of 30 people standing by and witnessing the entire attack, although initial sensationalized news reports made it seem so. The assault came in 2 parts. Most witnesses of the first attack did not realize she had been stabbed and thought it was a lover's quarrel. When the perp returned 30 minutes later and finished her off, there was only 1 witness. I do agree that witnesses of the initial attack should have done more to help, but some witnesses of the first attack actually did phone police and the police failed to respond effectively.

Now suppose you see a man of apparent age 60 in a park with a 4 year old girl. She is crying and struggling, he has pulled down her pants and is pawing at her crotch. Do you instantly kill this vile sex offender? Actually the girl sat on a red-ant bed, was suffering multiple stings, and the man was trying to help his grand-daughter.

Unless you see an entire incident, you can never be sure what the hell is happening. A man pointing a gun at a convenience store clerk could be an undercover LEO arresting the clerk. Unless you heard the preceding verbal exchange, you don't know what's going on.
 

Treo

Bullet Proof
I have no problem w/ helping you (my) fellow man out. What bugs me is the idea that your CHP comes w/ a bat cape that so many carriers have. having a permit doesn't make you (generic) a cop. It doesn't give you the right to go sticking your nose in business that doesn't concern you.

As I have stated before, there are carriers out there that believe that we have a solem duty to "ride to the sound of the guns"

Think I'm kidding?

Originally posted on THR we're all LEO's

In some way, we're all LEO's. We all have the responsibility to help uphold the law, to help those around us, and to be there for the general good of society. We just might not draw as often (hopefully) as the local PD does.
we're all LEO's - THR


Originally posted on THR The Honorable Burden We Bear : A Shooter's Duty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The recent spate of heinious crimes in which firearms were misused have caused many to fear that this sport of ours is at an end. Indeed, as the musical chairs within the White House creak to a stop, we who would see the second amendment upheld are right to fear a corresponding cessation to our rights. These, then, are the burdens we must carry in this breaking age: a commitment to compart ourselves as honorable men and women, a drive to bring more shooters into the pack, and constant awareness of the political winds.

A Shooter's Duty

1. I will carry myself as an honorable individual, a veritable exemplar of honesty, gentility, and kindness as befits the critically reasoning individual that I am, so that others respect me and the culture that I bear.

2. I will always be ready to demonstrate to others the meaning of courage, fearing not to speak when lessen men might remain silent, even if it means that I may draw the baleful attention of the majority.

3. I will strive vigorously to tea in the ways of firearms, demystifying the stultifying effects of Mainstream Media, and bringing more enlightened souls into our ranks.

4. I will care for my firearms, and regularly practice with them proudly, so that I will be competent in the hour of need.

5. I will be prepared to use my skills and knowledge to defend myself and others, even those who would seek the removal of my rights.

6. I will maintain relations with this our community of shooters, so that we are a unified body, and may respond en masse as a contigent of citizens to any threat.
The Honorable Burden We Bear : A Shooter's Duty - THR others


Not just no, HELL NO SQUARED
 

BlackieChan

New member
I think that most of the replies here are very high quality advice. I really appreciate all the feedback on this thread! I see that I don't fall into the category that most of you are irritated with. I don't feel like I have a bat cape(lol). I see that what I was missing was a little wisdom on the subject. Understanding a situation is much more important than intervening and it took your guy's insight to help me understand that thanks!!
 

Lakeland Man

New member
I'm not a sheep. I'm not a sheepdog. I'm not a wolf (except where females are concerned).

Um...how about a Honey Badger? Small and innocent looking, but completely vicious when needed.
 

50SR9

New member
Other than call the LED and observe, nothing unless it was perfectly clear the victim was going to receive serious bodily harm or death. At that point I would call attention to myself to let the attacker know that he/she is being observed. I would have my weapon ready but not drawn. I am not a cop, so unless the attacker turns to put me in physical danger, the weapon stays holstered. If the attacker decides to move the attack to me, I will draw and warn, then take appropriate action. I hope to NEVER be in this situation, but to just turn away.......no way in hell! I would hope others if they come along would do something similar, you could be helping my family member or I could be helping yours.
 

Treo

Bullet Proof
Other than call the LED and observe, nothing unless it was perfectly clear the victim was going to receive serious bodily harm or death. At that point I would call attention to myself to let the attacker know that he/she is being observed. I would have my weapon ready but not drawn. I am not a cop, so unless the attacker turns to put me in physical danger, the weapon stays holstered. If the attacker decides to move the attack to me, I will draw and warn, then take appropriate action. I hope to NEVER be in this situation, but to just turn away.......no way in hell! I would hope others if they come along would do something similar, you could be helping my family member or I could be helping yours.

Given that you are planning to "draw and warn" against someone who already has a gun in their hand the appropriate action would be to fall down and begin to bleed
 

50SR9

New member
Given that you are planning to "draw and warn" against someone who already has a gun in their hand the appropriate action would be to fall down and begin to bleed

That isn't what I meant. If the attacker had a gun I would have mine drawn before interjecting myself. I am not a fool, but not going to present my gun if he does not have one drawn first.
 

azasadny

New member
In my view, a sheepdog protects the sheep and doesn't go around lookijngfor trouble. My "sheep" are my family and friends and if they are threatened, I'll turn into a mean old sheepdog immediately to protect them. I'm not trying to protect strangers, they need their own sheepdog. Sorry, it's just my honest answer...
 

wjh2657

New member
A sheepdog's primary duty is to is to keep sheep from running away from their master, who intends to shear them for their wool or butcher them for food. Hitler's SS were sheepdogs. We really need to find another symbol for a protector!
 

FN1910

New member
When I fisrt read the "sheepdog story" I liked it but the more that I have tought about it and the more it has been discussed the more I dislike it and disagree with the comparision and thought that it tries to inject into the role of a person. For starters I have said before and will repeat there are too many people walking around looking for an excuse to use their gun rather than having an actual need to use it. Next in those cases where you have to or do obtain a CCW/CWP/CHP/... the only thing that that permit means is that you now can carry a gun (or weapon in some cases) concealed (or openly in some states) without being arrested. It does not give you any police powers or responsibility that you did not have before. It is a permit, not a badge and if you think it is some kind of badge or provides you with special powers or responsibility then sell your guns before you get in big trouble or killed.

Ask almost anyone who carries a gun around on them and see what answer you get. Talk with them awhile and see if that answer holds up. Unless they are very unusual the true reason that they carry is not what they will tell you at first and the fact is they don't know why they carry. I really don't give a flyng flip about what your reason is but you need to be honest with yourself about it. Carrying a gun without a permit where legal is just like those places where you need a permit in that it does not give you any special powers, duites or responsibilities. If you look at a person and say "If I only had my gun I would do so and so" but refuse to do anything without your gun and claim that with a gun you or someone else would have had some kind of magical powers to stop or prevent something but without it they were just sitting ducks then you don't deserve to be allowed to carry a plastic knife for defense much less a gun.

Thousands of people sucessfully defend themselves and others every year in this country and others without a gun but about all I hear out of gun toters is poor old so and so is defenseless and doesn't have the right of self-defense without a gun. Too many people just sit around claiming they are sheepdogs because they carry a gun and making up reasons why they can't do anything without a gun while others are out there making a difference, defending themselves without a gun. A gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you and because you have a gun doesn't mean the other person won't shoot back. I constantly hear people tell that they have a gun for protection. I ask what did you do, make a suit of armor out of it? That is the only way it is going to protect you. A gun is just one more tool in your defensive toolbox and too many seem to think it takes the place of a brain.

If you see someone that needs your help and you base your decision on whether or not to help them solely on whether or not you have a gun then you are no sheepdog, maybe sheepdog excrement. Now how much help and what you do will depend on what tools you have available, especially if you put your brain in motion. Now whatever you decide to do and whatever help you offer or provide be sure you know what if going on before you do.
 

tommy62

New member
Other than call the LED and observe, nothing unless it was perfectly clear the victim was going to receive serious bodily harm or death. At that point I would call attention to myself to let the attacker know that he/she is being observed. I would have my weapon ready but not drawn. I am not a cop, so unless the attacker turns to put me in physical danger, the weapon stays holstered. If the attacker decides to move the attack to me, I will draw and warn, then take appropriate action. I hope to NEVER be in this situation, but to just turn away.......no way in hell! I would hope others if they come along would do something similar, you could be helping my family member or I could be helping yours.

I agree. Good post.
 

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