Idiot FFL/01 Holder Experience

[Amsdorf]

Just a bit of vent/rant...

I just sold a handgun on Gunbroker to a guy who has his FFL/01 license.

So, he is all upset that I am shipping the handgun to him via overnight FedEx and told me I can ship it to him via United States Post Office, Priority Mail.

The bozo obviously did not read the auction terms and conditions, for there I clearly stipulated I will ship it only to a FFL holder via FedEx overnight.

Further, he apparently doesn't know squat about Federal Law, ATF regulations and USPS regulations.

Told me, "I have people ship me handguns through the USPS mail all the time."

Oh...really?

I should report the doofus to the ATF.

As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a marooon"

 

[AzBanks]

I should report the doofus to the ATF.

Oh really??!?

Is the ATF your friend?
Do you think the ATF rules are fair and constitutional?
Are you a busybody who needs to stick his nose into other peoples business?(Your transaction with him is your business, his other dealings are not)
Are you a tattle-tale?


For the record, I suggest everyone follow all applicable laws when dealing with firearms transactions(you never know when YOU could be the target of a sting operation). I'm not saying this guy is doing the right thing but why get involved in another man's business that has nothing to do with you.

We have way to many tattle-tales, busybodies, nannies, and control freaks in this country. Sadly this has lead to a large number of the same getting elected to federal office. This country would be MUCH better off if people would mind their own d@mn business.

 

[blueribbonman]

I had a "discussion" with a guy about the same thing as far as shipping through the mail & I don't even have an FFL, but he insisted that he does it & the local postmaster is aware of it. He also tried to tell me that there is a state that requires all residents to own a firearm, I responded with "How about a town down in Georgia". No that's not it, it's a state. He also told me that he reloads & uses a little more powder then recommended, I called him an idiot, he said that guns were made to with stand it & could take it. I just walked away. how it is that he's made it to 50 & not in jail I haven't a clue.

 

[barecove]

does that go for the inner city kids that have a no tell policy when it comes to thugs murdering people with illegal guns? they should just keep quiet and let the thugs continue and possibly take out someone YOU might know? just wondering how far you take this no tattle tale stuff...

 

[Sir Diealotz]

What a dumb ass LOL

He won't have his FFL long

 

[Amsdorf]

The country would be better off if idiots like you were not in it.

I'm going to report the guy to the ATF precisely because of what he was asking me to do, and telling me I could do.

We have enough problems as it is without idiots like you guys running around.

 

[AzBanks]

does that go for the inner city kids that have a no tell policy when it comes to thugs murdering people with illegal guns? they should just keep quiet and let the thugs continue and possibly take out someone YOU might know? just wondering how far you take this no tattle tale stuff...

Wow, you go from shipping methods to murder. You go from a government regulation that is constitutionally questionable to capitol murder. If you can't see a difference between the two, you are beyond help.

The country would be better off if idiots like you were not in it.

I'm going to report the guy to the ATF precisely because of what he was asking me to do, and telling me I could do.

We have enough problems as it is without idiots like you guys running around.

Looks like I hit a nerve. I knew there would be one of two possible responses to my post. Either you would recognize the issue or you would become defensive.

Please do us all a favor and NEVER complain about too much government regulation.

I used to believe this was a free country. Our freedoms died a long time ago because of people like you. You are no different than the Nazi sympathizers who turned in their Jewish neighbors. There is a big difference in degree but the principle is EXACTLY the same.




If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" — Samuel Adams


"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains or slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take but as for me; give me liberty or give me death!" — Patrick Henry

 

[jfisch]

Oh really??!?

Is the ATF your friend?
Do you think the ATF rules are fair and constitutional?
Are you a busybody who needs to stick his nose into other peoples business?(Your transaction with him is your business, his other dealings are not)
Are you a tattle-tale?


For the record, I suggest everyone follow all applicable laws when dealing with firearms transactions(you never know when YOU could be the target of a sting operation). I'm not saying this guy is doing the right thing but why get involved in another man's business that has nothing to do with you.

We have way to many tattle-tales, busybodies, nannies, and control freaks in this country. Sadly this has lead to a large number of the same getting elected to federal office. This country would be MUCH better off if people would mind their own d@mn business.

You know, he says at the very beginning of his post that it's a Vent/Rant. He's just blowing of steam. No need to be a total douche-bag about it. No reason for personal attacks.

Looks like I hit a nerve.

Of course you did and you knew you would because you're an ass.

 

[B2Tall]

Just a bit of vent/rant...

I just sold a handgun on Gunbroker to a guy who has his FFL/01 license.

So, he is all upset that I am shipping the handgun to him via overnight FedEx and told me I can ship it to him via United States Post Office, Priority Mail.

The bozo obviously did not read the auction terms and conditions, for there I clearly stipulated I will ship it only to a FFL holder via FedEx overnight.

Further, he apparently doesn't know squat about Federal Law, ATF regulations and USPS regulations.

Told me, "I have people ship me handguns through the USPS mail all the time."

Oh...really?

I should report the doofus to the ATF.

As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a marooon"

Just out of curiosity.......why will you only ship via FedEx Overnight?? You wouldn't ship via FedEx ground (or another FedEx option) if the buyer requested it??

 

[kjzim88]

Wow, you go from shipping methods to murder. You go from a government regulation that is constitutionally questionable to capitol murder. If you can't see a difference between the two, you are beyond help.





Looks like I hit a nerve. I knew there would be one of two possible responses to my post. Either you would recognize the issue or you would become defensive.

I have to agree with jfisch that AzBanks is an ass.

Amsdorf, good luck.

 

[Amsdorf]

Just out of curiosity.......why will you only ship via FedEx Overnight?? You wouldn't ship via FedEx ground (or another FedEx option) if the buyer requested it??

Overnight shipping via common/contract carrier is required for non-licensed individuals. FFL/01, etc. holders have more flexibility with shipping options.

 

[B2Tall]

Overnight shipping via common/contract carrier is required for non-licensed individuals. FFL/01, etc. holders have more flexibility with shipping options.

Not to be argumentative but........are you sure about that?? I hadn't heard of that before so I did a little research and couldn't find anything from ATF or FedEx requiring overnight service, license or not. Only UPS requires overnight service but they're a private company and that's a company decision.

 

[Benji40]

Amsdorf set the terms for the deal, guy wants to alter terms after agreeing to them. Use whatever ya got to cause misery to the guy.

 

[Amsdorf]

Not to be argumentative but........are you sure about that?? I hadn't heard of that before so I did a little research and couldn't find anything from ATF or FedEx requiring overnight service, license or not. Only UPS requires overnight service but they're a private company and that's a company decision.

Here is what you are dealing with ...

If you are NOT A FFL HOLDER your options for shipping A HANDGUN are severely limited by federal law. You MUST use a "contract carrier" and you can NOT use USPS.

To my knowledge, only UPS and FedEx will accept handguns for shipment.

Both UPS and FedEx REQUIRE overnight when shipping a handgun.

Ergo: (1) NO USPS. (2) UPS OR FED EX. (3) OVERNIGHT UPS OR FEDEX.

 

[jfisch]

Here is what you are dealing with ...

If you are NOT A FFL HOLDER your options for shipping A HANDGUN are severely limited by federal law. You MUST use a "contract carrier" and you can NOT use USPS.

To my knowledge, only UPS and FedEx will accept handguns for shipment.

Both UPS and FedEx REQUIRE overnight when shipping a handgun.

Ergo: (1) NO USPS. (2) UPS OR FED EX. (3) OVERNIGHT UPS OR FEDEX.

Aren't you glad you vented now?

 

[AzBanks]

You know, he says at the very beginning of his post that it's a Vent/Rant. He's just blowing of steam. No need to be a total douche-bag about it. No reason for personal attacks.



Of course you did and you knew you would because you're an ass.

They were not personal attacks, they were questions. If he(or anyone else) found them offensive, that says a lot about the person who is offended. It is sad how far people have gotten from understanding what freedom really means.

I am more than happy to have you think I am an ass if it causes you to think about the real meaning of freedom for even one second. Are we really free with the ATF regulations as written? Do the ATF regulations really do anything to protect people in any way? Are the ATF shipping regulations just another small step in the march toward removing all of our gun rights?

Every right we don't fight for ever single time is a right we will surely loose. Every time we do something in support of some mindless government regulation, that is another step toward loosing our freedoms. My intent was not to be an ass to Amsdorf, it was to get him to think about which side of freedom he wants to be on. I think Amsdorf was correct in everything he did EXCEPT where he wanted to report the guy to the ATF. Did Amsdof have any direct, first hand knowledge that the guy did in fact break the law? Or did he just have the guys stupid statements? If the guy had said something that lead Amsdorf to believe the guy was a danger to other people, then yes, he should report him to appropriate law enforcement.

Your post, on the other hand, IS a personal attack. That is quite funny contrasted with your signature. Your post seems to imply that you are in support of Amsdorf committing a malicious act. Amsdorf's own post indicates that he wants to report the guy out of nothing but vindictiveness.

 

[B2Tall]

Here is what you are dealing with ...

If you are NOT A FFL HOLDER your options for shipping A HANDGUN are severely limited by federal law. You MUST use a "contract carrier" and you can NOT use USPS.

To my knowledge, only UPS and FedEx will accept handguns for shipment.

Both UPS and FedEx REQUIRE overnight when shipping a handgun.

Ergo: (1) NO USPS. (2) UPS OR FED EX. (3) OVERNIGHT UPS OR FEDEX.

With all due respect I believe you're misinformed. Please show me where FedEx or ATF requires overnight. There's not a word about it in their rules concerning firearms. Same thing with ATF. I'd really appreciate it if you'd post a link. I'm serious.......I've shipped firearms in the past (including just recently) and would like to know if I've broken the law. I'm familiar with USPS regulations (which does allow shipment of long guns under certain circumstances, but no requirement for overnight) and I'm aware of UPS's own overnight requirement but I have yet to see anything that legally obligates someone to ship a firearm via overnight service.

Here's where I'm getting my info from:
http://www.fedex.com/us/freight/rulestariff/prohibited_articles.html, section "B"
Please note that FedEx doesn't mention anything about overnight nor do they mention handguns, only "firearms".

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons, #s 7,8,9 concern shipping
Please note that they make no mention of overnight requirements.

If you have another viable source then I'd really like to see it. I would like to know if I have broken federal laws.

 

[tricolordad]

You know, he says at the very beginning of his post that it's a Vent/Rant. He's just blowing of steam. No need to be a total douche-bag about it. No reason for personal attacks.



Of course you did and you knew you would because you're an ass.

Knowledge bomb. You're growing on me lol

 

[Amsdorf]

You are just confused, understandably.

Fed Law requires you to use a "contract carrier" and you can NOT use USPS if you are not a FFL holder (FFL/03 doesn't count). That means you ship via UPS or FedEx, NOT USPS.

UPS and FedEx each have specific requirements re. how they ship firearms. There is a difference between handguns and long guns.

Just spend more time reading up on all this, you'll get it figured out.

 

[Amsdorf]

Just out of curiosity.......why will you only ship via FedEx Overnight?? You wouldn't ship via FedEx ground (or another FedEx option) if the buyer requested it??

Key point to keep in mind: Federal Law, Postal Regulations and then requirements by the contract carrier you would use.

Gunbroker has a very good page of information/succinctly stated:

Firearms Shipping Guide Overview
This page provides information about Federal Laws, step that must be followed, and notes on using specific shippers when shipping firearms. This page is oriented toward the seller of an item. If you need information about how to buy a firearm through GunBroker.com, please refer to our Buyer's Tutorial.
This page contains information oriented toward persons shipping firearms within the United States. For sellers located outside the United States, please see our Import / Export page.
Shipping Legalities
Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL) only. The recipient must have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale).
Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.
'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before 1898, or a replica thereof. The exact ATF definition of an antique firearm is:
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Knives, air guns, accessories, and most gun parts need not be shipped to an FFL holder. We say most gun parts because each firearm contains at least one part that the ATF considers a firearm. This part is typically the part that contains the serial number. This part must be treated as a complete firearm when shipping the item.
Ammunition must be clearly identified as 'Small Arms Ammunition' on the outside of the box. Some shippers treat ammunition as dangerous or hazardous materials.
The section of the US Code that governs modern firearms is called Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition (CFA). This code is available online at: Link Removed
When in doubt, we suggest arranging for transfer through a licensed dealer. Violation of the CFA is a felony and penalties for violation of it are severe.
Federal and State Law Resources
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) has a very comprehensive site containing information about the various Federal and state laws regulating firearms. Please refer to the ATF information for legal questions regarding firearms.
ATF Home page: http://www.atf.gov
ATF Compilation of the various state laws: Link Removed
ATF Firearms Division Main Page: http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry
Shipment by Unlicensed Persons
Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be an 'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions.
The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensed dealer. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements to ship the item to a dealer in his state.
Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the dealer's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it.
Notes on specific shippers:
US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifle or shotgun by US Mail. Unlicensed persons cannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal regulations allow the Post Office to open your package for inspection. Ammunition cannot be shipped by US Mail. You can search the Link Removed site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearms and ammunition.
FedEx Express: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight service. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.
FedEx Ground: FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.
UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept shipments of ammunition. Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments.
Shipment by Licensed Persons
Any shipper who has a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be a 'licensed person'. This section contains information on how licensed persons can ship firearms. If you do not have an FFL, please see the previous section of this page for shipping instructions.
Since licensed persons are responsible for knowing the law, we are going to assume that you already understand the CGA and know the applicable Federal, state, and local laws.
Notes on specific shippers:
US Mail: Licensed persons can ship a rifle, shotguns, or handguns by US Mail. In fact, we suggest that you use the USPS as it is now the most cost-effective way to ship a handgun. To ship a rifle or shotgun, you need only inform the Post Office that the package contains a firearm. A licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer can ship a handgun via the US Post Office if the licensed dealer fills out a Link Removed and files it with the local Post Office branch where the handgun is to be shipped. You can search the Link Removed site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearms and ammunition.
FedEx Express: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight service. Ammunition must be shipped as hazardous goods via Ground in compliance with ORM-D.
UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept shipments of ammunition.
Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments.
Notes on USPS Firearm Regulations
We recommend that you read the Post Office regulations on Link Removed before shipping a firearm through the US Mail.
The following info comes from the USPS Regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024
Page C-39, section 3.0, Rifles and Shotguns: "Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act or 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated there under, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 1.1e."
Page C-39, section 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife, any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside wrapper or container."
The following pertains only to licensed dealers shipping handguns:
Page C-37, section 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government......."
Page C-38, section 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts."
Page C-38, section 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."