I hope I'm not violating the law!


tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Something happened today that makes me wonder if I've been breaking the law all this time. In the apartment building in which I live, as I was going down to check my mail, as I always do when checking the mail or going down to the laundry room, I had my Glock 22 in an IWB holster under an untucked shirt. However, my wallet, which contains my carry permit, remained in my apartment. I've never given too much thought to it until today when a police officer was on the elevator with me. He apparently had just left someone else's apartment, so I had nothing to worry about, but it got me to thinking. Should I begin taking my wallet with me any time I go check the mail or do my laundry? Can I be charged with carrying without a permit for doing this? My instinct would tell me no, since I the building is my place of residence and am not leaving it while doing these things. However, I'm wondering if this is the correct line of thinking. I suppose that if I have to, it won't kill me to take my wallet with me, but why should I have to if I don't? Anyway, does my RKBA without having my permit on my person apply to the entire apartment complex, the entire building, or only my apartment?
 

Canis-Lupus

New member
In WA...YES.

In WA state where your concealed pistol goes, so MUST your permit outside of your home, to stay legal if U have 2 use that weapon. One day some smart person may issue a tiny bar-code chip/strip that IS your CC permit and attaches to a part of the pistol where it doesn't get in the way of easy use and doesn't wear or fall off. Got 5 guns, no probs apply for 5 CCW strips. Dogs got it easy, their tag goes here they do, it would B handy if the same applied to your carry weapons.

Canis-Lupus
 
In SOME states, if you are caught withOUT your Permit/License to carry

you just have to present the License/permit to the court BEFORE the court date

different state = different rules and allotted time
 
Contact the agency that issues the license. This would be the simplest solution unless you feel like paying an attorney for a "legal opinion".



gf
 

Jay

New member
Here ya go.........

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Here ya go.........

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.


I'm familiar with what the law says; however, I'm wondering if the law would define the entire complex and/or building as my dwelling, or only my apartment. I could be wrong, but if I'm caught down in the laundry room or at the mailbox without my permit, I would hope that I would not get charged. At the same time, if they're going to be that strict about the law's interpretation, I suppose it wouldn't kill me to bring it with me. Arrrrgh!
 

Stiofan

New member
The letter of the law says you need to have it on your person when outside your apartment. Common areas are usually not defined as your apartment.
 
The letter of the law says you need to have it on your person when outside your apartment. Common areas are usually not defined as your apartment.

The gray area is the part of "on the person's property". Who's to say what part of the "common area" is this particular person's property. I've said this many times and I'll say it again; I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. Pay a few dollars and speak to an attorney who is familiar with firearm laws. You can also refer to the state attorney general's office or to the agency that issued you the permit.



gf
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Thanks for the input. On the one hand, I would think that if I step foot out of my apartment just to check the mail or go down to the laundry room, only an a**hole LEO would arrest me for this, even if I'm not following the letter exactly to the law; think about it, what good can come out of hassling someone who just briefly steps out of their apartment just to check the mail or to do the laundry? On the other hand, I suppose it wouldn't impose an undue burden on me to simply grab my wallet and put it in my pocket whenever I go to do these things.
 

Stiofan

New member
The gray area is the part of "on the person's property". Who's to say what part of the "common area" is this particular person's property. I've said this many times and I'll say it again; I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. Pay a few dollars and speak to an attorney who is familiar with firearm laws. You can also refer to the state attorney general's office or to the agency that issued you the permit.



gf

It's actually not that gray. I'm not an attorney either, but I've worked with R/E contracts for 30 years now, in insurance cases, and as the OP says, it's simply easier to carry his wallet. If he feels the need to check with an attorney for a matter such as this, by all means go ahead.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
The letter of the law notwithstanding, it really seems inconceivable to me that any LEO would seriously even consider arresting someone for carrying while going to their mailbox (which is still in the building) or to the laundry room (also in the building) while leaving their wallets in their apartments a short distance away unless they are just having a really bad day; even then, what's the likelihood that if you're caught, you'll be arrested, unless the officer is just being a royal a**hole or you're causing trouble. I have carried without my wallet to the mailbox and laundry room several times since I first posted this thread and not given it a second thought, and I'm pretty sure most of you wouldn't either. I suppose if I remember to, I'll bring my wallet, but honestly, unless I'm causing trouble, I simply do not see myself getting arrested over it, and most of you probably shouldn't either, I would like to think.
 

Jay

New member
geeze guy, it's your choice, but if you're gonna carry the handgun, that little permit/license shouldn't over-burden you.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
geeze guy, it's your choice, but if you're gonna carry the handgun, that little permit/license shouldn't over-burden you.

You're right, but let me ask you. If you were an LEO who was on duty and in my apartment complex and saw my gun printing through my shirt while I was headed down to the mailbox or to the laundry room, would you arrest me if the permit was up in my apartment instead of on my person, and I wasn't otherwise being disruptive or disorderly?
 

Jay

New member
Indiana code says " in the person's posession"

Like speed limits, most LEO's will give you 5mph over, but do they have to? NO. I wouldn't arrest you, but I wouldn't allow gay marriages either, so what I want don't hold much water. Your original question was "am I in violation".... technically, I'd say yes. For me, where my handgun goes, so goes my permit.
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Depends on the State

In NV, it's a $25 civil penalty.

The IC does state it must be in your possession. The question of whether or not the common areas of your apartment complex or condo/homeowner's association is a matter best addressed by an attorney who is a member of the IN State Bar as case law would come into play here.

Best practice is for you to carry your CCW any time you are carrying concealed outside of real estate you own, lease, or rent. For apartments or condos it's inside the unit; from the studs in. For a house, it's the structure plus the parcel of land that the building is on that the owner pays property taxes on.

In my instance, the USPS delivers mail to community boxes that are located throughout the neighborhood. My particular box is located three houses away on the sidewalk. If I were to carry concealed to get my mail without my NV CFP, I would risk getting cited for carrying a concealed firearm without my NV CFP being in my possession. It is also at the investigating LEOs discretion on whether or not to confiscate the firearm you are carrying and let a judge or the DA's office sort it out. If the NV Criminal Repository is down, it becomes my word against the responding LEOs. Also keep in mind that my State is over $1B in the red, I know that NV LEOs have been (unofficially) put into revenue generation mode.

Most States has a some sort if computer database for verification of CCWs issued by them or a political subdivision within the State.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
In NV, it's a $25 civil penalty.

The IC does state it must be in your possession. The question of whether or not the common areas of your apartment complex or condo/homeowner's association is a matter best addressed by an attorney who is a member of the IN State Bar as case law would come into play here.

Best practice is for you to carry your CCW any time you are carrying concealed outside of real estate you own, lease, or rent. For apartments or condos it's inside the unit; from the studs in. For a house, it's the structure plus the parcel of land that the building is on that the owner pays property taxes on.

In my instance, the USPS delivers mail to community boxes that are located throughout the neighborhood. My particular box is located three houses away on the sidewalk. If I were to carry concealed to get my mail without my NV CFP, I would risk getting cited for carrying a concealed firearm without my NV CFP being in my possession. It is also at the investigating LEOs discretion on whether or not to confiscate the firearm you are carrying and let a judge or the DA's office sort it out. If the NV Criminal Repository is down, it becomes my word against the responding LEOs. Also keep in mind that my State is over $1B in the red, I know that NV LEOs have been (unofficially) put into revenue generation mode.

Most States has a some sort if computer database for verification of CCWs issued by them or a political subdivision within the State.

I suppose I should have made the subject of this thread whether or not, the letter of the law notwithstanding, a LEO would arrest me for doing this. It would seem to me that as long as I'm not causing any trouble, most LEOs would be willing to look the other way if I'm going to the laundry room (which is in the same building) or to my mailbox (also in the same building). Obviously, that would vary from LEO to LEO, but I have trouble believing that any LEO would do this unless he was in a really bad mood. That's all I'm saying.
 

twincam

New member
Reading these posts brings up another question. Has anyone run into their place of work banning any weapon on the premises even if it is locked in your vehicle and you have a permit to carry? Can they legally do that?
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Yes...

Reading these posts brings up another question. Has anyone run into their place of work banning any weapon on the premises even if it is locked in your vehicle and you have a permit to carry? Can they legally do that?
All Cisco Systems campuses in TX have 30.06 signage posted at all entrances to the parking area and all entrances to the buildings. I was at the Richardson TX campus for employer training January 2007.

A Cisco employee verified with TX DPS that 30.06 signage does have force of law for parking lots and notified me via e-mail when I made my original inquiry on Cisco and 30.06 signage. I parked my rental vehicle across the street in a church parking lot and left my firearms in the vehicle.

Also keep in mind that typically such parking areas are private property. While Florida has a statute prohibiting an employer from such practices it has been challenged by the Rodent (Disney) in Orlando. A similiar law was passed in OK, it was overturned by a federal judge citing a federal OSHA regulation. This ruling should have prohibited or will overturn the FL statute as it was made by a federal judge.

Also keep in mind that as long as you are getting a paycheck and benes from any employer, you agree to their terms and conditions for employment. If you do not have a contractual agreement with your employer with a due process clause and you work in what I refer to as a "fire at will" State, you can be terminated on the spot for refusing to allow your employer to search your vehicle or just for simple suspicion of having one in your vehicle.

If you have a due process clause in your employment contract, an employer cannot fire you for refusing to allow them to search your vehicle.

Another factor is if your vehicle is an extended domicile such as the case for the States of LA and NM. Your vehicle is an extension of your home by an article of the State constitution, code, law or statute. An employer requiring you to submit to a search would bring about an interesting wrongful termination lawsuit in an extended domicile State.

Keep in mind that these apply to State or privately owned property, not federal property. I would avoid parking my vehicle with a firearm stored in it on federally owned property especially if the entrances to the federal property have controlled access.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Reading these posts brings up another question. Has anyone run into their place of work banning any weapon on the premises even if it is locked in your vehicle and you have a permit to carry? Can they legally do that?

I see that this is your first on this forum. Welcome to USA Carry!

As for Indiana having law on keeping a gun in your car while at work, I'm not aware of any such law.
 

2beararms

New member
Reading these posts brings up another question. Has anyone run into their place of work banning any weapon on the premises even if it is locked in your vehicle and you have a permit to carry? Can they legally do that?

I can't speak for Indiana but "Can they legally do that"? seems to be the entire test in the case of the new Florida law. That is exactly the law the legislature passed, that a business MAY NOT stop an employee with a permit from keeping his firearm locked in his car on company property.

Now that has resulted in a court ruling upholding the law for now so at the moment a business may not keep an employee with a permit from having a gun locked in his car. HOWEVER, the court says since the law specifies an employee, that it therein means that they MAY keep non-employees (spelled US) from having guns in their cars. Of course that was never the intent and hopefully will be corrected quickly.

The battle is between property rights of the business and the individual rights of the permit holder. It appears so far that even though the legislature has spoken to give the upper position to the individual the courts are trying to doubletalk their way back to the business.

How will it all turn out??


If Indiana does not have a specific law addressing the issue, then property rights may well be paramount and the answer may be YES.
 

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