How far away is does a person have to be to be a threat?

[gunsite]

here's a video (police) of running into the unknown/unexpected, i don't want your opinion or actions base on this particular situation, but base on the concept. If you run into a confrontation with someone and it could be anywhere, lets say your in a isolated place like in the video, maybe a parking-lot late at night or lone street like the video. You could also take this video and incorporated into a ROAD-RAGE scenario, lets keep the LE situation/tactics and/or training out of the discussion and look at it from a civilian stand point/encounter.

I don't know the caliber of the weapon, but since its LE, i'm gonna assume its a least a 9mm and possibly hollow points. This is a very dangerous encounter from a civilian and LE point of view, showing that sometimes a few feet can be the start of something without time to draw and assessing there's no need to draw/deadly force at the start.

You never know who you might run into out there and how quick things can go bad, a fist/wrestle fight with a target, and your chambered weapon has the potential of getting taken away from you, or your gun jams... pressure changes everything especially when encounters are sudden and don't go by the book.

A target may look passive at 100-50 feet, and then goes aggressive without a weapon at 5-10 feet, and then its on... what do you do...


YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

 

[ricbak]

That is the kind of situation/lesson I prey that I never have to learn.

 

[gunsite]

In this situation when your up against an unarmed target who gets up-close with aggression... conflicts to your training/mind set as to NOT draw your weapon when no weapon or intent to use deadly force against you is present.

I would suggest, if possible, or at some point during the encounter... you need to turn away and run like your trying to steal second base, hopefully your in shape and can outrun your aggressor, and that your retreat defuses your target's aggression so you can dial 911/get help. An aggressor whose opponent retreats/runs away gets a sense of victory and may not pursue, maybe.

The other option is not a good one, if you can't runaway or have the opportunity to run, your assessment of being in fear of your life with no avenue of escape has to be made, at what point you make that decision is your call. Your observation of rage, aggression, and the mind set of your target will be your testimony... and keep in mind you don't need a weapon pointed at you to be in fear of your life.

Another thought is when and if you draw your weapon, will you be over power and have your weapon taken away, will you get off a shot, will you hit your target, will your gun jam, and what if your shot doesn't stop your target, i know of a target that took six torso hits from 45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition (point blank). Rage, drugs, booze, and Adrenalin/epinephrine are always factors.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey gunsite: Liked your recent post. Running away or some sort of avoidance should be your first course of action. If it is not and your first course of action is to stand your ground, IMO the firearm has a fool for an owner. With distances meaning little at less than the magic 21 ft, once that firearm is presented you are almost obligated to fire it. You should have already assessed your situation (as if most of us at this point have not wetted our pants with heart rates approaching 150 or higher), have nowhere to go, and are in reasonable fear of imminent bodily injury or death. As much as we tend to discuss with in a macho way while at our computer, if we are really true to ourselves we would realize this is coming down to possible death (ours and not theirs) and situational awareness, avoidance and running away are the best ideas.

 

[hollie1]

Durning our our class training we were told about the 21 ft.rule! Though its not the magic ft mark it was what we were told. Asked Ok what ya gonna do come out an measure it? They told us they would base it on what happened. But no not down to the actual ft or inch! Aso they mentioned to us about turning and running away! We were told IF you have some sort of medical issue which would make it impossible to run like a bad heart or leg issues ect! We should speak to our family Dr. Explain we have CCW Permit. Ask them about your health on the running away issue! If they feel that you could not run then your Dr. can make a NOTE in your file indicating this! If you are in a situation where you are faced with an issue this would be noted & why! I spoke with the instuctor afterwards and told him about my problems. He strongly agreed I needed to get this noted on my files! I spoke with my Dr & I did just that! Dr totally agreed! Theres no way I can run away or fight off an attack! I've had this same dr for over 15 yrs so he knows well!

 

[kelcarry]

Hey hollie1: In many states their is the "no obligation to retreat" rule in the regs; I would think that if you cannot run due to health issues, this rule preempts your need to retreat, although, if healthy, it would seem that avoidance is a first priority. Without the ability to move around and "adjust" your postion vs a slime, you should be practicing point shooting. At 21 ft or less and without mobility, a slime will be on you before you have a chance to do much of anything and, in reality, you would probably only REALLY perceive a threat at something less than the 21 ft. Point shooting, without using your sights or even a laser, will save you that second or two that could be critical. It is amazing how your hand and firearm will point to the target when your eyes and nose are pointed at the target. When practicing, try it---you should be able to hit center mass or close to center mass in less time than using your sights and/or laser.

 

[hollie1]

Hey hollie1: In many states their is the "no obligation to retreat" rule in the regs; I would think that if you cannot run due to health issues, this rule preempts your need to retreat, although, if healthy, it would seem that avoidance is a first priority. Without the ability to move around and "adjust" your postion vs a slime, you should be practicing point shooting. At 21 ft or less and without mobility, a slime will be on you before you have a chance to do much of anything and, in reality, you would probably only REALLY perceive a threat at something less than the 21 ft. Point shooting, without using your sights or even a laser, will save you that second or two that could be critical. It is amazing how your hand and firearm will point to the target when your eyes and nose are pointed at the target. When practicing, try it---you should be able to hit center mass or close to center mass in less time than using your sights and/or laser.

Yes I agree ! We (i) do this on a regular bases! (point shooting) I wish I could run,but never could even has a child! Never could take gym in school either. I'll have to check on the "No obligation to retreat rule" going the range Sat.their instructor will be there I'll have to ask him about that ! Thanks :>)

 

[micpl]

Ive Got Some Issues

Suffice to say that some opposing perspective might apply/help here in this topic. Now having read enough of this discourse I will emphatically declare B#LL SH_T!. I dont remember any training where all present sh-t themselves and turned and ran when faced with a threat. PLEASE! We dont train our military or police to such cowardice, nor should we train or espouse a civilian to abandon his/her duty to fight for himself and or family.

Speaking of family, what do you turn coats do when a threat is eminent and your surrounded by your wife and kids. GOD! I KNOW, run everybody run run run you will yell with you out front in the lead safe and leagaly sound. PATHETIC!

Why did you bother to CCW in the first place, and not stand your ground (taking cover is still standing ground if you intend to fight). I do not fear for my life as so many here lament in doing. I carry a gun more for protection of family and yes others who may come under bodily harm or death rape etc. From BG's. It is a personal responsibilty and a mandated job of every man and woman. You train to shoot, and you will know when to. Act and talk like it. The law swings both ways. Im sure Ive pissed off someone here. I HOPE SO!

 

[kelcarry]

Regardless of distance, learn how to point shoot. Aiming, sights, even lasers take time--every bit of a second is valuable and point shoot gives it to you and still allows you to engage a threat.

 

[THE DUKE OF ESSEX]

I am disabled and in a wheelchair, my wife and I were getting me out of the van via the lift when a man came from behind the vehicle. I keep a derringer in my coat pocket (2 shot 9mm) and as luck would have it my hand was in my pocket on the gun. He was less than 8ft away from us, so I told him not to come any closer or he would be shot. It is very difficult for someone in a wheelchair to protect themselves in these type of situations. So I consider anyone a threat who invades my space, or is coming at me, so I instinctively go for my gun. I am glad he saw the resolve in my face and walked away fast. The reason for the derringer is to give me time to get to my other gun on my hip, Taurus 45 or Beretta 92fs. I hate the winter months when I have to wear a coat that covers up too much of my main pistol. This is just one more scenario to consider, and is there a better way to protect myself and my wife? Suggestions are appreciated!

 

[ClearSightTactical]

Regardless of distance, learn how to point shoot. Aiming, sights, even lasers take time--every bit of a second is valuable and point shoot gives it to you and still allows you to engage a threat.

and if you miss your intended target and kill an innocent bystander do you explain to the cops that you were 'point shootin'?

I think instinctive shooting methods are awesome, but I can't bring myself to consider any type of point shooting as a serious methadology for any shot more than 3 yards.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey CST: Let me throw the question back to you per your last reply---if you aim and miss or your laser is out of kilt and you kill a bystander do you not expect the police to want to know why you have a firearm and are so poor at shooting it? Point shoot is not the be all and end all, it is a method that provides you with additional skills that can save your life. Your argument is sarcastic and fallacious.
Hey micpl: Lighten up a bit. Didn't anyone tell you that the best defense is avoidance. No one has said that you should tell your family to enjoy their time with the slime and have a good time, and then turn and run away. You even contradicted yourself with the true meaning of your statement "train to shoot and know when to shoot"; to me that means you know when to avoid and does not mean that you just lick your chops everytime someone approaches with an attitude of "let's get it on". By the way, as you let loose your barrage of bad language and insults, learn how to spell.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

Hey CST: Let me throw the question back to you per your last reply---if you aim and miss or your laser is out of kilt and you kill a bystander do you not expect the police to want to know why you have a firearm and are so poor at shooting it? Point shoot is not the be all and end all, it is a method that provides you with additional skills that can save your life. Your argument is sarcastic and fallacious.

I don't have a laser on my carry guns, I use the sights. Yes the police would want to know why you're a poor shot. HOWEVER, I think the instinctive methods are not as widely accepted in traditional marksmanship. Explaining to a jury that you were point shooting just seems like a sure way to lose for any negligent charge, or in civil court.

I've trained in different types of 'point shooting' including Isralei combat shooting, and combat focus shooting. I think its cool, and for the most part works at close distance, hence why I said not something I'd use over 3 yards.

Your original and follow up posts are smug, and have a feeling of arrogance.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey cst: Wish to apologize for unseemly language. Appreciate your many posts and their information. Agree that 3-5 ft is the only appropriate point shoot distance. Be safe fellow forum user and contributor. Again, I apologize.

 

[HootmonSccy]

good article on the "21 foot rule":

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? (Part 1)

 

[gunsite]

We can stay here indefinitely talking about the 21 foot rule with variables added. Two people facing each other (gun dual style)... then, when you add in the variables, the person with the retention holstered concealed weapon doesn't stand a chance.

LE stand off is the typical rule of thumb when we talk about the 21 foot rule, in real life most people will never get their weapon out, assuming the CC person has their weapon holstered and concealed, not open carry.

If a target is at 30 feet and decides to pull a knife and run at you, most people, again.. most people... the body can not register with the eyes are seeing, so there's a pause for a reality check (momentarily) before the brain believes (react to) what it sees, have you every talk or heard someone say/state to someone and they experience something shocking, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT, I COULDN'T BELIEVE MY EYES. Look at the photo of the oswald assassination... its called A STATE OF SHOCK.

If your in confrontation with someone, or for some reason your threat level raises, then you may be at more at the ready, and still UNDER PRESSURE... you have to get the weapon out, on target... and make the shot... hoping that your shot stops the target.

Learn how to move and shoot, shoot and move, that's your best chance of surviving a shootout or confrontation, standing your ground to out draw/shoot someone can get you killed.

This happens to LE and civilians, the natural reaction to a surprise threat is... drawing your weapon to protect yourself, when it should be MOVING, not becoming a stationary target, COVER whenever possible, your chances of being shot are decreased.

Learn how to retreat, draw, shoot while creating distance, it is...a defensive tactic. Good Luck and TRAIN.

 

[GOV5]

"of course this assumes you have reason to believe they have intention to inflict great bodily harm or death, and other force options or options do not exist or are not practical."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX B N M

Doesn't that depend on the State in which you live? In some States, there is no law that you HAVE to retreat. If you feel threatened, you can use deadly force.

I hope I am not spreading incorrect info. However, if someone is a threat to me, my attention is going to be on that threat, not on searching for an escape route. I can't do both of those at one time. I could get shot or knifed, or clubbed, or whatever, by taking my eyes away from the threat just for a second, while looking in another direction for an escape. I think I can convey that in court in a manner in which a jury can understand.

 

[FN1910]

How far away is does a person have to be to be a threat?

Osama Bin Laden is over 5,000 miles away and I consider him a threat. :yu:

But to answer your question, if you worry about the exact distance then it is too late to do anything about it. There are too many variables to even worry about exact distance and trying to define such a thing. To further muddy the waters it will not matter when you get in court as one side will say he was too far away and the other side will say he was well within range no matter if it was 2' or 200'. Argue XD vs. Glock, that will be easier.