How Cooperative with a LEO is wise?

Canis-Lupus

Canis-Lupus

New member
I ask this as general advise, knowing each state and situation has it own laws and every situation is different, so I am NOT looking for more than general advice from someone who has lived thru this, is a CCW trainer/expert or been the arresting officer.
OK, U have had to use your weapon in some form from drawing it, to pointing it at someone who is hell-bent of messing you up for no reason you provoked, to discharging it at that attacker as a very last resort. Or that person has already gained entry to your home or car and you now fear for your life big time. You are sober and hopefully you are the armed citizen who made the (recorded) 911 call for help, which may arrive in 2 or 20 minutes. The cops show up and your brain kicks into DEFCON -1. Shut up, say nothing and plead the 5th. So you state you would like a lawyer present and decline to make any statements (even if a few vital ones could cear you if others agree that is what happened) when they get to the part about: "Do you have anything to say?" If your answer is still a firm "No!" you WILL get you wish after they MIRANDA you, arrest you and take you cuffed to the local cop-shop, maybe leaving your nice car (non-driving spouse or kid or dog left to watch you get hauled away) on the side of a road somewhere. As Landor points out in an excellent blog he made (What every CCW should know and think about.) that bears a read if you have a gun. Per his advice it is good proactive thinking to already have the contact number of the best weapons defense lawyer in town B 4 you even think about walking around packing, in your billfold, or in your head. Someone who you have at least met with once and given him/her your take on being and staying lawful, your personal data, access to arrange bail for you, how to access those funds, calls to your loved ones to take care of your home/pet or job, and ALL the things a PD may/or may not do for you by day 2 into police custody. Also a PD may be a very busy person who gives you tops a 15 minute window of your side of the story, knows only as much about you as is on file and may not know as much as a specialized weapons defense lawyer does when it comes to federal, state, county or city laws he or she may be kinda rusty on about guns, or considers police reports and witness reports 'the facts' B 4 they ever get to your statement. "He said, she said" type of grilling that is almost guaranteed to flummox you. :oooh:
In your estimation, and I would love to get advice from someone who gives me something a lot better than a 1-liner no-help post, don't even bother if that's your level of answering a question you may need the answer to one day in terms better than "You'll figure it out buddy!" (save it!) This type of question IMHO rates a few comments from someone who knows laws not bar-room gags. Is there ever a time or a good reason to provide any details to the 1st senior law enforcement officer on the scene, while your gun is still smoking, the BG is nursing a bullet hole, BUT everything is still very fresh in your mind. The BG if still alive does not have the chance to get some M8's who 'saw the whole thing go down' :hilarious: and will swear you were the BG and their M8 the victim. In those first few moments the witnesses are still there to provide statements still fresh in their minds, but won't be for long, not off on vacation or scattered to the winds to avoid/miss your court date when it rolls around. It's not 3 months later in a court-room, that you and those on your side try to recreate but have forgotten what the BG, or you was even wearing or what day it happened on (oops!), etc., to back up a truly lawful action you chose to take in the absence of any help, looking at impending injury or death that helps you in any way, or damns you for making a statement you can not retract once it's logged into record, and if so, at what point of the many questions the cops are sure to ask you @ the scene would you decline to say another word the day that incident went down? I do consider this a legitimate question that may help many others if they find themselves in this situation. I do not ask for precise legal counsel, but a qualified take by someone with sound advice would be a great help, not in maybe 2 years after I get out of some jail for being my own worst witness.
My regards to any USA Carry patron who wants to provide me (and everyone who views this thread) some words of good advice that may one day make the difference between being released pending a court case on my own recognizance, or sweating it out in a jail cell with less than great folks as company for much longer than you wanted. :icon_bitterbal:
I look forward to some helpful feed-back,

Canis-Lupus :y:
 
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You Are Right!

kwo51 said:
Quick one liner look at our history logs and see we did not fall of the turnip truck today.
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This is similar to a thread from a couple of months ago. C/L brought it up again and I posted the same link as last time again. It is good information and maybe something a newbie might need.
 
there are 3 sides to every story

When an event like this goes to court, there are 3 sides t every story.
1. The plaintiffs side
2. Th defendants side
3. The Police report.

IMHO I would only offer the following information:

Name,
Address,
CCW license
The phrase; "I wanted the threat to stop."
Followed by; "I want an attorney."

That is all they need from you. Any thing else can and will be used against you in a court of law.:vampire:
 
Damn turnip cart has a flat tire. I also am a disabled vet that had to learn ,You have the right to remain quiet if you can.Life for me is to short to not see humor in most things.
 
I believe the less said the better. With that in mind, the most important think to make clear to the LEO is that you are the victim. This is why that call to 911 whether at home or on the road with a phone is vital. Letting the authorities know that you are being threatened, that the attackers are armed (whether you know for sure or not), and that you are in fear of your life is so important. If one is placed in a situation of having to defend their actions it is easy enough to secure a copy of the 911 tape to verify your situation, and is an important component in gun defense cases. However, not all agencies keep these for long periods. These tapes can sometimes be destroyed after 30 days, so it is important to secure a copy promptly.

In Florida it is never a good idea to display, or point a handgun at anyone unless you absolutely believe that you are in fear of your life, or are preventing a forcible felony. When you display or point in any other case here you open yourself up to a charge of aggravated assault. This charge in Florida, if convicted carries a 3 year mandatory sentence, and judges have apologized to citizens that they had to send to jail simply because of the way in which this law is written. The use of force should always be equal to the threat. You can also be assured that even if you display a firearm in most situations, never pointing it at the attackers, they will almost always tell the LEO that you pointed it at them. Low life's are always low life's.

Back to the issue of what to say.

A simple statement like, "Officer, this individual broke into my home and I believed him to be armed, I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family and was forced to shoot."

After this, I would not say another word without an attorney. If you are pressed, I would say something like, "Officer, I am very nervous right now, and would like the time to calm down before I make any further statements."

If this does not satisfy him/her, my last resort would be to remind them that in most cases LEO's are given 24 hours to calm down and get their thoughts right before they see an investigator when they have been involved in a shooting.

It is great advice to have an attorney's information with you if you intend to carry. More important is to have the information of an attorney who has experience with State gun laws, and preferably is a gun owner and 2nd Amendment supporter him or herself. Keep in mind that this could get costly, and most homeowners insurance will not cover anything like this. I do believe that the NRA does have some type of insurance that they offer with a limit of $50.000, but this only kicks in after you have spent the money, and won the case.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Palmach
 
The following was on the USCCA news letter today. Perhaps it will be of some help.


PART ONE:
Link Removed

PART TWO:
Link Removed
 
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Many individuals are in a kind of shock following an event and assume that they will be within their rights and may think of the situation as a kind of traffic violation in terms of time required. However, a gun related activity is a very serious event and mandates all players on the front line. You shoud of course give the basic personal information including permit information. You should immediately call 911 to report the incident. You should tell the LEO that you are the one that called. You can tell the LEO that you were in fear of your life and that you shot to stop the threat. Of course, the physical evidence must support your statement. You should not say anything that is not true and you should be extremely careful of each word you say. You should tell the LEO to speak to your lawyer and you should immediately call your lawyer. It will be the first time for most folks for involvement with a criminal lawyer.
 
In such a serious situation you should not be trying hard to avoid arrest - you should be trying hard to avoid a conviction! An arrest is not a conviction - say it with me. An arrest is not a conviction.

You will probably be arrested no matter what you do. If you blabber like an idiot, trying to avoid arrest, you're likely to say something inaccurate or really stupid that will be held against you later. Calm down. Being cuffed and carted to the station is not the end of the world. Being convicted is.

Identify yourself, claim self defense without going into detail, ask for your lawyer and shut up. If the physical evidence is against you, it doesn't matter how pretty you talk anyway.
 
ishi said:
In such a serious situation you should not be trying hard to avoid arrest - you should be trying hard to avoid a conviction! An arrest is not a conviction - say it with me. An arrest is not a conviction.

You will probably be arrested no matter what you do. If you blabber like an idiot, trying to avoid arrest, you're likely to say something inaccurate or really stupid that will be held against you later. Calm down. Being cuffed and carted to the station is not the end of the world. Being convicted is.

Identify yourself, claim self defense without going into detail, ask for your lawyer and shut up. If the physical evidence is against you, it doesn't matter how pretty you talk anyway.
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I'd go a step further and go with the advice of my legal counsel. If I'm ever involved in a defensive situation where my firearm was involved, I will 1) make every effort to cooperate with law enforcement 2) say nothing about the situation without my attorney present. It's important to remember that in most places if a firearm was involved, you WILL be arrested. Your firearm will probably be held by police as evidence until they're done with their investigation. You should get checked out by a doctor as you will probably feel very sick about the situation. Remember; DO NOT ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CASE WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY. Anything you say CAN BE used against you. NOTHING you say will help you. Don't believe me, then watch this video: Link Removed




gf
 
I will just say that my experience with attorneys has been less than stellar. I know everyone keeps saying to get advice from an attorney about anything where legal dealings are involved but there have been several times where I could have done better than the attorney I hired. In fact I had to explain to one how to properly prepare the closing statement for my last home. This was supposedly an attorney who specialized in real estate for 30 years.

My point is that the deal about not saying anything without an attorney present is BS. All the attorney is going to do is tell you to keep quiet and let him work out the details on how you are going to get screwed and he will still get his fee. I just as soon put my case in the hands of the LEO, at least I know which side he is on and I trust him to give more accurate information than I do any lawyer.

Just my personal experiences so if you are involved, don't say anything you don't need to and be sure you tell the truth. If there is any doubt just keep quiet and watching TV does not give you a very good law degree.
 
FN1910 said:
My point is that the deal about not saying anything without an attorney present is BS. All the attorney is going to do is tell you to keep quiet and let him work out the details on how you are going to get screwed and he will still get his fee. I just as soon put my case in the hands of the LEO, at least I know which side he is on and I trust him to give more accurate information than I do any lawyer.
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Yipes...

I'm sorry for your bad experiences with lawyers, but trusting the responding officer is pretty foolish IMO. You do know whose side he's on - the side of the state. He's a representative of the state and if a decision gets made to try to make a case against you, every single thing you say will be twisted and turned against you. In the moments after a traumatic experience, who knows what you'll say with all the adrenaline and emotions you'll be feeling.

Find a good lawyer. If the state has a case to make against you, let them make it but don't give them the rope to hang you with.
 
Yep, its bad when you sit there and get all the papers signed having already told the realtor and everyone else that something is wrong and the lawyer looks at you and says I need a check from you for $80,000. You say what, I am supposed to get one for $25,000 and he points to the paper and says well this it what you signed.

Or in another case you pay another one $7,000 to handle the sale of a business and when the deal goes bad he says "Sorry about that, I can refer you to another attorney that can handle this case".

Then there is the one that looks you in the eye and says yes I cut down all the trees in my yard in violation of the restrictive covenants, so what. You have the right to sue me if you want to.

I also like the one that I asked if am man came into your office and said "I just murdered my wife but I don't think the police can prove it and I want you to get me off", would you handle the case. The first thing out of the lawwyers mouth was only if I got my payment ahead of time. Don't ever think that a lawyer is working for you or your friend off the golf course.
 
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I will try to give you a little experience of mine: I do not like to talk about this alot, but doing so has helped me feel better (I've posted it in other forums) and I feel that it may perhaps help someone else that could end up in my shoes.

I am an older male (late 40's). I have been involved in two concealed carry shooting incidents. In one incident, the BG lived, the second, the BG was DOA.

The first that I was involved in, the BG lived, further, the BG never filed any type of suit against me, but he was caught red handed (a 3 or 4 time felon) with a gun beside him after I shot him. This incident started as an attempted car jacking of my wife (I was in the vehicle behind her - thank God). I saw the BG approach her vehicle at a stop light with gun drawn in hand. I exited my vehicle and drew my CCW at the same time. I immediately hollered STOP as loudly as I could. The BG immediately turned and started to bring his weapon up to fire (Mistake, as mine was already aimed). I fired twice, BG fell. I immediately walked over and kicked his pistol to the curb. 911 was called. Might I add, that if you ever in your life shoot someone, you cannot imagine the flood of intense feelings that you will experience. When asked my name by the LEO, I could not answer, I handed him my driver's license and CHP.

Being new to any experience with any LEO, I answered every question asked during the investigation. I was never once advised of my rights during this time. Not that it mattered, I was a blabbering fool by the end of the investigation. My Gun was seized and I was allowed to go. The DA did not file charges against me, my gun was returned (after filing paperwork to get it back) and all was over.

The second shooting that I was involved in was a bit different. This happened in an auto parts store parking lot. Some crackhead (yes he was, I was informed by PD later) came at me with a bowie knife, even though I had never seem him before in my life. As I recall in my mind over and over, I drew, aimed, yelled and shot at the same time. He never stopped advancing at me. This particular BG was dead before the police arrived. This particular time, I was a bit wiser (however I don't feel it put me in any better position). I told the investigators that he charged me with a knife, that I used my gun, and that I had no further statement without presence of an attorney. Again, my gun was seized, and I was transported to the local PD for further investigation. Once my lawer arrived I told him as best I could recall what happened. Within the hour I was free to go. Again, I was not charged with any crime, and I once again obtained my firearm back from the PD after the investigation was closed.

So take this however you wish... Once I blabbered like a baby everything that happend never shutting my mouth, and once I shut my mouth. Both times, nothing bad happened. I do feel that the only reason the first incident went so well, was because the officers knew the BG, and that he was a felon, and that obviously the gun was there that he was using.
 
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How Cooperative?

As a former police officer, the best advice I can give is supply the officers with your name and CCW permit and Driver's License, and say, " I want a lawyer." The sad truth is, when the police are looking at you as the perp in a case, they are NOT your friends. The average person gets involved in a case and feels that innocence is on his side, so he develops diarrhea of the mouth. He is probably in shock and confused, and a standard police interrogation technique is to have you tell your story over and over and over again. If you are human, you will begin to doubt your own senses, and little changes will pop up in your story. They seize on this as possible evidence of wrong-doing. When you say you want a lawyer, they are required to discontinue talking to you, although some will try an end run. Once you have stated you wish an attorney, shut the Hell UP! If you continue to sperw, they consider that an excited utterance and will use it against you. It is funny, but the ne'er-do-wells all know all of this and use it to their own advantage, while truly innocent people get their butts in a sling trying to convince the cops of their innocence.
 
Ok some one said" immediately call your lawyer" IDk about you but i don't keep a lawyer on retainer waiting for when i may need them. The sad fact of the matter is most people cant not afford a good lawyer and are stuck with. The Public defender and most of them are just looking to get you a deal and close it as they have way to many case's already. Most of the public defenders will get your ass in a sling by telling you to talk or do this. Just so they can get end the case. As they are under paid and you are not paying them. So they really do not care what happens to you. Also some police departments will keep you in the interview room till you talk if you want to use the 5th. They keep you there till you talk. If the police ask you to come down to the police department to talk. Tell them no ask them to come to your house then tell them you are video taping every thing. You really don't even need to do that just have a sign on the front door that says Video/audio recording. It's really sad that your tax money is used to try and Convict you even when you have nothing to do with it.
 
Holy Crap! I just viewed the videos on this forum and I am completely astonished. Boy was my thinking wrong, wrong, wrong. I have now come to the very firm conclusion that shutting the f**k up and not saying anything is absolutely the very best thing anyone should do.

Paying attention to the Miranda warning is the best thing in a short education seminar one could possibly receive. And when the LEO finally says, "Do you want to talk to me?" you should say NO, and keep saying no until he/she asks if you want an attorney. Or better yet, right after you say no to the question of talking to the LEO, tell him/her that you want an attorney. And then say nothing further, no matter how long they keep you in the "interview" room.
 
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