Thanks for the info. I don't own one but was looking for somehing my dad, a self employed plummer, you does some work in bad areas can use purely in self defense. He does not have much money and does not go to ranges and does not look at shooting as a hobby. He recently had a rough encounter and made him think about it more. I recommended the glock 17 and 21 which is what I have. He really can't afford that and can barely swing the price of a hi-point.