Helping a victim or not????


ASC1WBullock

New member
Something that has been running in my mind from some post I have seen on this site. I have seen the debate of if we come across a person in our home and they are trying to retreat once confronted, do we let them go or stop them for life. The other part of this is the out in the open theory. Now I feel there are a lot of factors that play into this part of the situation.

One being if the BG is attacking you and you draw on him. Now if he retreats what will you do? Me, I think once the threat of danger to me has subsided then he is free to go. If I shoot him or her at this point I have just opened up a numerous amount of possible court issues with the prosecutor. One being why not let him go since the threat was done?

Second thing that bugs me is the ability for some people to say if they see a crime like a rape or robbery going on they wouldn't get involved because they are not the police. Let's take a look at this idea I have for a second: You are on your way home from spending a long day at the office. While driving home you notice a man in a alley way to your right on top of a woman coming down with hard blows while she is kicking and screaming. You continue home and come home to an empty house where ten minutes ago your wife told you she had dinner waiting. You then receive a phone call from the police saying your wife has been assaulted and you're needed at the hospital. You arrive to find out that female you saw getting assaulted in the alley way was indeed your wife. Now what decision do you feel is right for helping others.

I'm not I believe we need to get out and shoot the BG but I believe we owe it to ourselves to help the weak as we would want the same from a stranger if one of our loved ones was in the same situation. How do you decide to be a victim?
 

I think the people that say "we are not the police" are really just saying they are not going to go out of their way to put themselves in danger. Leave that to the police. But I dont think any one of us is going to drive by a rape in progress and say "I wonder what hunny made me for dinner..."

I think we would find a safe spot, dial the police, be the best witness we can be without trying to play superhero. I would love to be able to play superhero macho guy and save the day, but the fact is- when you jump in, you run the risk of turning one victim into two. You have to be smart, be alert, and do what you can while balancing your will to do good with that of your safety.
 

Phillip Gain

New member
Something that has been running in my mind from some post I have seen on this site. I have seen the debate of if we come across a person in our home and they are trying to retreat once confronted, do we let them go or stop them for life. The other part of this is the out in the open theory. Now I feel there are a lot of factors that play into this part of the situation.

One being if the BG is attacking you and you draw on him. Now if he retreats what will you do? Me, I think once the threat of danger to me has subsided then he is free to go. If I shoot him or her at this point I have just opened up a numerous amount of possible court issues with the prosecutor. One being why not let him go since the threat was done?

Second thing that bugs me is the ability for some people to say if they see a crime like a rape or robbery going on they wouldn't get involved because they are not the police. Let's take a look at this idea I have for a second: You are on your way home from spending a long day at the office. While driving home you notice a man in a alley way to your right on top of a woman coming down with hard blows while she is kicking and screaming. You continue home and come home to an empty house where ten minutes ago your wife told you she had dinner waiting. You then receive a phone call from the police saying your wife has been assaulted and you're needed at the hospital. You arrive to find out that female you saw getting assaulted in the alley way was indeed your wife. Now what decision do you feel is right for helping others.

I'm not I believe we need to get out and shoot the BG but I believe we owe it to ourselves to help the weak as we would want the same from a stranger if one of our loved ones was in the same situation. How do you decide to be a victim?

Either you're trolling to re-hash a debate that has been argued endlessly here...or fishing for a clear cut answer that doesn't exist.

You're posing two questions:

1) Should you let the BG get away if he has started retreating?
2) Should you intervene on behalf of a stranger in distress?

The short answer to #1 is that you are justified to shoot if you feel your life or well-being is in danger.

She short answer to #2 is that, while you are generally under no legal obligation to intervene on behalf of another, you may do so if you choose. BUT - you need to make sure you comprehend the situation and are willing to accept the risk to yourself and your loved ones. Here are a couple of questions you might want to consider:

- IS IT CLEAR who is the assailant and who is the victim?
- WHAT IS THE RISK to me if I intervene and am unsuccessful?


For example - you come across one man holding an unarmed man at gunpoint...you draw...gunfire is exchanged while the unarmed man makes his escape, and the armed man goes down.

As the police arrive and start to sort things out, they find that the armed man was defending himself against the robber who had a pocket knife. The apparently unarmed guy you just helped to escape to safety. So now you're up for assault, maybe attempted murder, and aiding/abetting. Good chance you'll get clear of most of those charges and can cut a decent deal for the ones that are left. But then you still have to deal with the lawsuit from the guy you shot.


In short - make sure you know what you're getting into before you slap leather.
 

tuts40

New member
I think the people that say "we are not the police" are really just saying they are not going to go out of their way to put themselves in danger. Leave that to the police. But I dont think any one of us is going to drive by a rape in progress and say "I wonder what hunny made me for dinner..."

I think we would find a safe spot, dial the police, be the best witness we can be without trying to play superhero. I would love to be able to play superhero macho guy and save the day, but the fact is- when you jump in, you run the risk of turning one victim into two. You have to be smart, be alert, and do what you can while balancing your will to do good with that of your safety.

Nuff said. +1.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
I think the people that say "we are not the police" are really just saying they are not going to go out of their way to put themselves in danger. Leave that to the police. But I dont think any one of us is going to drive by a rape in progress and say "I wonder what hunny made me for dinner..."

I think we would find a safe spot, dial the police, be the best witness we can be without trying to play superhero. I would love to be able to play superhero macho guy and save the day, but the fact is- when you jump in, you run the risk of turning one victim into two. You have to be smart, be alert, and do what you can while balancing your will to do good with that of your safety.

Then when the rape is done and the criminal cuts her throat with the knife, then what? Oh, I'm sorry... I could have prevented that... but I chose to call the police... who, when seconds count are only two hours away. I would not have it in me to stand by and be the best possible witness to a violent crime while waiting for the police to arrive.
 

Budreaux39

New member
Why is it that 'most' people, civilians, police, lawmakers or otherwise, feel that if any ccw person seen 2 people in an alley and one had a gun on the other, if the ccw person stops to help that they are just gonna start shooting? I mean, is this something we see all the time? (TV) Not picking on anyone in particular but this fuels the fire for the anti's. The way we say and write our 'thoughts' should present more considerate thinking about the 'fuel' for both sides of the gun/self defense issue.
Just saying :p
 

BRBruce

New member
That second story reminds me of Spider-Man. He had the chance to stop the guy who ended up killing his Uncle Ben.
Question one:If there is somebody already in your home and you have a chance to draw, he shouldn't have time to retreat. Cases tend to move a lot faster and smoother when there is only one story...yours.
Question two: This is very much a matter of personal decision making and situational conditions.
 

SGTSKI

New member
Why is it that 'most' people, civilians, police, lawmakers or otherwise, feel that if any ccw person seen 2 people in an alley and one had a gun on the other, if the ccw person stops to help that they are just gonna start shooting? I mean, is this something we see all the time? (TV) Not picking on anyone in particular but this fuels the fire for the anti's. The way we say and write our 'thoughts' should present more considerate thinking about the 'fuel' for both sides of the gun/self defense issue.
Just saying :p

Yeah it does seem to be the trend to assume that every "intervention", for lack of a better word, turns into a shoot/don't shoot scenario. But since when does being a permit holder, or gun owner in general, limit your options of helping someone only to the use of a firearm?

I have to believe that armed or otherwise, I would intervene and do everything in my power to help someone in a situation like the one presented by the OP.
That being said, there is a time and place for everything. The situation dictates every scenario, and the response to one scenario will not be appropriate or feasible for every other scenario.
And there are definitely times when it is wholly inappropriate to involve yourself at all.

At the end of the day, if I did what I knew to be the right thing, regardless of the consequences, I can live with that...
 

ASC1WBullock

New member
Phillips Gain, good points and for your first comment about bringing old post if you read my opening statement you will see I said something that has been bugging me about these post replies. Second if you intervene does that mean you have to shoot someone? No. Stopping the threat doesn't mean shooting all the time or even most of the time. Am I wrong?
 

Hamilton Felix

New member
Phillip Gain makes sense to me.

But as to the people who say they won't get involved because they aren't the police: In 21st century American society, these people are realists. They may not be what I would call "Good Men," but they know that the one crime today's police and prosecutors will always prosecute (persecute) MERCILESSLY is "doing the job the cop believes is his." They don't think going to prison will be good for them or their families. God knows, I don't want to see any more Kitty Genovese incidents, but today's society, the modern American Police State, has trained people to react in this manner.

It's up to us to change things. We go armed because it is both our Right and our Responsibility. Col. Cooper was right about a duty to society.

Yes, we have a responsibility to help. It's a big risk, made much bigger by the Police State. But we cannot simply walk past evil. Evil wins when good men do nothing.

Yes, know the situation before you step in. But by actual annual body count, Police kill ten times as many innocent bystanders as non-Police defenders (I will not say "civilian" because Police ARE civilians). I'd say ordinary citizens have a decent track record on knowing the score before intervening.
 

titaniumman

New member
Then when the rape is done and the criminal cuts her throat with the knife, then what? Oh, I'm sorry... I could have prevented that... but I chose to call the police... who, when seconds count are only two hours away. I would not have it in me to stand by and be the best possible witness to a violent crime while waiting for the police to arrive.

I have a teenage daughter...I couldnot pass by a woman in need, no matter what. And as a side note I have already interveined on an assault, I was only 18 and I was completely unarmed. The woman was being assaulted on the street about 11:00pm, I drove upon the curb and put my bumper about 2 feet from his head while he was bent over her on the ground. I got the girl in my car and drove her to the police station. He was an abusive ex-boyfriend...And she was extremely gratefull.
 

S&WM&P40

New member
Phillips Gain, good points and for your first comment about bringing old post if you read my opening statement you will see I said something that has been bugging me about these post replies. Second if you intervene does that mean you have to shoot someone? No. Stopping the threat doesn't mean shooting all the time or even most of the time. Am I wrong?

No but unlike the Hollywood films we all watch, not every criminal backs down when they are shown a firearm. What happens when he/she/they rush you after dropping their weapons? Going to shoot an unarmed person? Are you any good at ground fighting?

Lets say you did shoot them, as training videos and real world tapes show a person can close in with in seconds. Unlike films one shot does not kill on the spot, nor does it send them flying back ten feet. They would more then likely still have enough fight left in them to stab/shot you a few times.

Lets add another kink into the works, the vic turns around and sues you for causing them PTSD(shooting the BG)

Now you find yourself defending yourself from criminal charges(if any come down)and two civil suits.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
No but unlike the Hollywood films we all watch, not every criminal backs down when they are shown a firearm. What happens when he/she/they rush you after dropping their weapons? Going to shoot an unarmed person? Are you any good at ground fighting?

Lets say you did shoot them, as training videos and real world tapes show a person can close in with in seconds. Unlike films one shot does not kill on the spot, nor does it send them flying back ten feet. They would more then likely still have enough fight left in them to stab/shot you a few times.

Lets add another kink into the works, the vic turns around and sues you for causing them PTSD(shooting the BG)

Now you find yourself defending yourself from criminal charges(if any come down)and two civil suits.

Better than the sleepless nights I would have knowing that I watched a woman being raped, being the best witness I could while waiting for the police to arrive. At least I would have the respect of my family.
 

Providence Ranch

New member
My God people. If you carry just to make yourself feel bigger, but never plan to draw for fear of liability, then put that puppy back in the safe and start carrying pepper spray or a stun gun. Because you carrying should actually have a chance of benefitting someone someday!

I carry because if someday, God forbid, I find myself able to prevent a great evil from taking place, I will. I'm not looking for trouble, far from it. I hope paper bad guys are all I ever get to shoot. But I will not stand idly by and allow a violent crime to take place in my presence if I have the ability to stop it. And I will certainly not let fear of liability stop me from doing what is right and reasonable.
 

ASC1WBullock

New member
Providence Ranch and NavyLCDR hit it right on the head. I agree with both of you one hundred percent. Going to sleep at night knowing I helped an innocent person from harm compared to watching and waiting for the police to come do their job after the fact is more settling for me. I mean if your first thought is am I going to be sued for helping this person then keep right on walking. SMH how have we as a country let the courts punish a man or woman for coming to the aid of another human being?
 

jg1967

New member
The situation that you describe is so clear cut that you'd be well within the law in most places to intervene. Unfortunately, it usually isn't that way in reality.

For arguments sake, if it was that clear of course you should intervene.
 

S&WM&P40

New member
My God people. If you carry just to make yourself feel bigger, but never plan to draw for fear of liability, then put that puppy back in the safe and start carrying pepper spray or a stun gun. Because you carrying should actually have a chance of benefitting someone someday!

I carry because if someday, God forbid, I find myself able to prevent a great evil from taking place, I will. I'm not looking for trouble, far from it. I hope paper bad guys are all I ever get to shoot. But I will not stand idly by and allow a violent crime to take place in my presence if I have the ability to stop it. And I will certainly not let fear of liability stop me from doing what is right and reasonable.

Ah yet another great "Sheep Dog" trying to talk down to the flock. Sorry can I not stop myself from laughing I have to stop reading your self righteous BS.

Just a FYI a lot of members do carry a less then lethal as well as a firearm.

Sorry, I applied for my concealed weapons permit so I could have yet another legal tool to defend myself and my family. I did not apply for it so
Because you carrying should actually have a chance of benefiting someone someday!

I left the boxes on that bottom that asked if I wanted a badge and red cape blank. Their is more then one way to help someone other then playing dirty harry as so many seem to want to do. As other members have said be a good witness,set your car alarm off and draw a lot of attention,yell at the person.

Draw your firearm and the person does not stop what he is doing then what? Shoot a unarmed person who was attacking someone else?

Check the laws in your state. Here in NH is someone is getting raped or is about to your clear to use deadly force to stop such an attack.

CRIMINAL CODE
CHAPTER 627
JUSTIFICATION
Section 627:4
627:4 Physical Force in Defense of a Person.

II. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person when he reasonably believes that such other person:

(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense.

Just because I can does not mean I will.
 

Phillip Gain

New member
Bottom line:

To the first question: If your life and safety is in danger, you are justified to shoot. Keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

To the second question: If you happen across a situation where someone else's life and safety appears to be in danger, you may choose to intervene. Assess the situation as best you can. Know the law. Understand the risks to yourself and your family. Make your decision, and be prepared to live with the consequences regardless of what that decision is.

There are a lot of guys who talk a lot of sh** on this forum. Some of them even have some experience in situations like this. I strongly recommend you acquire as much training and knowledge as you can. Then should you be unfortunate enough to be in either position, you will be able to make your own decision, rather than blindly following the advice of a nameless, faceless "keyboard tough guy."
 

Providence Ranch

New member
@S&WM&P40

Interesting. I was rather certain some small mind out there would miss my point entirely, and the word "sheepdog" or "keyboard warrior" or some other clever slam would come out. Nice.

What you'll notice, though, if you reread my post, Is that never once did I suggest that the firearm is the only element in the use of force continuum. Of course the first answer is rarely going to "draw and fire." There are many other options for providing assistance, as you pointed out.

What I am railing against in particular is the attitude that some have, that whenever anyone suggests they would be the type to get involved and help someone in need, they do just as you have, and jeer and label them wannabe cops or caped crusaders, etc.

Apparently, if you're the kind of person to help out a stranger in trouble, but you keep quiet about it, you're ok. But the minute you speak up, you're a mall ninja. Pathetic.
 

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