Hand to Hand Combat While Concealed Carry

[mpshieldmp]

Hello,

I carry IWB with a holster that has pretty good retention. However, one of my concerns is that if I was every in an alteration that required hand to hand fighting that my gun would come out of the holster and potentially be used against me. I want my hand gun to be very secure so that I can confidently fight hand to hand, and even wrestle if necessary without concern that my gun will fall out.

Any suggestions or thoughts?

 

[Kennydale]

For that reason I carry a G17 AIWB and a Ruger LCP (Left Front Pocket). I am soon to be 67. I am not a pushover, but lets be realistic about my hand to hand capabilities (Limited). AIWB affords my EDC decent protection from being grabbed. MY LCP INSURES THAT !

 

[bofh]

Make sure the retention is pretty good. The gun should not fall out when your holster is upside down. Your IWB holster should be close to the body.

Buy a blue gun, then train and practice how to protect yourself and the weapon. Train and practice how to draw one handed while someone is attacking you. You can do that at a firearms training school, a good martial arts school or with a buddy at home.

You should obtain some self defense skills that do not involve using your firearm anyway. Many self defense scenarios do not involve deadly force.

 

[Eidolon]

If someone is attacking me while I am carrying it IS a deadly force incident. I am NOT obligated to present you with an opportunity to disarm me.

In fact I'm quite confident that I can articulate that the fact that you're trying to take my gun is a reasonable threat to my life

 

[SmiddySW]

Blackhawk Serpa CQC Concealment Holster @ TacticalGear.com

something like this perhaps? I mean if a non-serpa holster doesn't suit you, these may.

In your earlier post, you indicate that hand-to-hand while you're armed is deadly force by default, but that's IF someone is trying to disarm you. Unless they are, and are not attempting to inflict severe bodily harm or death upon you, I'm not sure that really flies in court? Not trying to be a smarta**, just not completely sure what it is you mean by being attacked while armed vs someone trying to disarm you.

I have heard (not verified) that if I am in a physical combat situation while I am armed, that I can be charged with armed assault or worse.

To the guy who said he's older: I hear ya man! I'm just 47, but not as strong/fast as I once was, plus I have a disability. A prosecuting attorney who taught a legal class for CC told me that due to that fact, I am legally ok to use deadly force much faster than someone without a disability because one wrong strike could definitely bust a Medtronics "pain pump" implanted in my abdomen that's full of morphone - would be a very fast, lethal overdose if that crap all hit my blood stream at once!

I like that comment about "train until you can't get it wrong!" So true. Close quarters self-defense is probably the most under-trained thing concealed carriers do. Let's face it, most lethal force encounters happen inside of 3 feet, so the entire draw, present, aim, fire sequence ain't necessarily gonna happen. Personally, I train to deflect/draw & fire to the pelvic area for just that reason, as well as firing from each draw position with each hand. Hopefully it's never required but....

One hand-to-hand thing I think is a bad idea is traditional martial arts strikes. I mean sure, if an attacker is willing to square off with ya while not armed, then ok. But what are the odds? Quick and lethal strikes I think make more esnse, like to the carotid artery with the ulnar bone of the striking hand, or an eye "pluck," throat punch, neck break, etc. There aren't many, if any, marital arts classes who are going to teach that stuff.

Studying anatomy a bit, then learning how to attack areas and organs that will stop a fight when you can't fire a round makes sense! Traditional martial arts blocks work of course, but the follow up strikes can end a fight, or they can end your chance of walking away.

<end of blabbering here> )))

Ya all stay aware & safe!
~Smiddy

 

[SR9]

I don't intend to let any threat get close enough for a hand-to-hand situation to happen at my age. I may not be able to out fight someone, but I sure as hell, can still blow them away, and have no remorse in doing so.

 

[1911LVR]

My CCW instructor informed us that (at least in AZ), if I get in a scuffle and charged with assault, the simple fact that I'm carrying automatically elevates it to "aggravated assault". Best to avoid those types of encounters.

 

[Eidolon]

I'm not sure what you all are thinking. This isn't Ridgemont High, if a stranger attacks you on the street he's not going to black your eye and call it good. You have every right to assume he means to do you serious bodily harm.

What do you think is going to happen if he knocks you on your ass and then notices your gun?

 

[seagullplayer]

Does not have to be a stranger.

I would say that chances are much better that its someone you know very well, maybe even family.
You don't want to end every confrontation with a gun.

You may have to whip your BIL's a-- from time to time, but that doesn't mean you want to shoot him.

My BIL is 6'6" and goes about 330, good thing he is a nice guy. I'd hate to have to whip him again...

The OP brings up a valid concern. I can't see making your firearm more secure without giving up at least some availability.

 

[SmiddySW]

I'm not sure what you all are thinking. This isn't Ridgemont High, if a stranger attacks you on the street he's not going to black your eye and call it good. You have every right to assume he means to do you serious bodily harm.

What do you think is going to happen if he knocks you on your ass and then notices your gun?

That's what I was trying to say but didn't. The effective strikes, preferably 2+ in rapid succession,, are for stunning and being able to get distance in order TO draw. Which is part of y I say I won't draw on someone if I ain't gonna shoot.

As for the 6'6" BIL thing I just saw, I hope he doesn't need whipped again too!

The legalities of striking while armed are important to think about I believe. It's a good reminder to try & de-escalate a situation when possible to avoid having to strike (like an argument not a full on attack), or unnecessarily start shooting.
It's all situation dependent. I train to be ready with hand to hand, & knife, as well as pistol. That way I have a better menu of what works in responding, and avoiding firing shots if the legal justification isn't present.

Sure if someone strikes me, it's immediately lethal force due to my disability. However, they'd better put me down quickly and decisively else bad things will happen...
There are good methods of disarming too but I'd not recommend trying it out on the street, IF it's something one wants to learn at all.

IMO the best defense is situational awareness and avoidance - definitely the safest.


USAF(Ret)

 

[bofh]

Blackhawk Serpa CQC Concealment Holster @ TacticalGear.com

One reason not to use the Blackhawk Serpa is that it is vulnerable to lockup of the retention mechanism due to debris or dirt:

 

[seagullplayer]

I sure wouldn't want to use a Serpa holster if I was rolling around on the ground in Arizona!

 

[BluesStringer]

I sure wouldn't want to use a Serpa holster if I was rolling around on the ground in Arizona!

So you think the location of the incident was the point of the video?

 

[mikestone967]

I don't intend to let any threat get close enough for a hand-to-hand situation to happen at my age. I may not be able to out fight someone, but I sure as hell, can still blow them away, and have no remorse in doing so.

Which is why you support further infringements on my Rights.. you are as old as dirt, start running your mouth and you need your gun to back you up...
you can't even defend that statement either.
So... just so you can shoot people without resorting to physical contact when you mouth off, you salivate over daddy Feds ability to "allow you" to carry anywhere so you don't wet your pants when challenged...

Sad little man(?) you are...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[PhillySoldier]

As others have mentioned there are different levels of security in holsters. You want something with more than just a level 1 passive resistance if this is important to you. For me im comfortable with a shoulder holster that is level two with a retention strap. I also can easily hold firearm and holster in place with minimal movement with my upper arm while still having my lower arms and hands free.

 

[SmiddySW]

K let's talk about hand to hand while carrying.

I feel it necessary to train for hand to hand because the pistol may not always be able to be drawn immediately when under attack. So if a threat is real close in it can be necessary to block and strike before being able to draw.

There are very effective fast strikes to key body targets that can stop an attacker at least long enough to employ ones weapon.
Not a bad idea to stay in good physical condition anyway, and hand to hand training can be fun.


Sent from my iPhone using USA Carry

 

[SmiddySW]

K let's talk about hand to hand while carrying.

I feel it necessary to train for hand to hand because the pistol may not always be able to be drawn immediately when under attack. So if a threat is real close in it can be necessary to block and strike before being able to draw.

There are very effective fast strikes to key body targets that can stop an attacker at least long enough to employ ones weapon.
Not a bad idea to stay in good physical condition anyway, and hand to hand training can be fun.


Sent from my iPhone using USA Carry

Any takers on this?

How about these techniques:

Eye pluck: one hand behind attackers head (great move for a woman in a rape situation). Thumb inserted into eye socket to behind the eyeball, bend thumb, pull.....hard for an attacker to keep attacking with their eyeball hanging out of their head.

2). Using ulnar bone strike with full hip rotation to strike an attacker' carotid artery will put them down 5-10 minutes, giving u time to address additional attackers or get away.

Either of these two movements can stop an attack when u can't get to, or God forbid don't have your gun. Both are best used as follow ups to a strong knee to the groin (attacker's sex irrelevant).

Then there are heel, elbow, knee and heel of hand strikes to vital areas like kidneys, liver, neck, etc (pick vital organ based upon target availability).

Also note that neck breaks don't work like Hollywood portrays them. Usually pressing the back of the head forward sharply will do the job, whereas twisting it sharply may or may not,

If under threat of serious bodily harm or death, such methods are as justified as shooting.

Thoughts or comments?


USAF(Ret)

 

[bofh]

Thoughts or comments?

Sure! The Internet is a good place to offer theories that don't work in practice, especially when mixing in all kinds of assumptions and constantly changing the discussed situation when challenged. Want to learn something about hand-to-hand combat? Take a force-on-force firearms training class and join an MMA club.

Make sure you have a clear objective. Is your objective to survive, or is your objective to give the other guy an a$$ whooping? Play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Always assume that your opponent is better than you and armed. Failure to do so, i.e., overconfidence, will get you killed.

There are all kinds of self defense skills that do not involve using your firearm. There are also all kinds of self defense skills that do involve using your firearm. What techniques actually work depends on the defender, the attacker and the situation. The Internet is really not the right place to learn any of this.

At a force-on-force firearms training class and in an MMA club you will learn the techniques that work for you. You will also learn techniques for different scenarios. You will learn how to block or deflect punches and draw your gun. You will learn that the most important things are: stay on your feet and protect your head and neck. You will learn that moving and leaning out of the direction of the attack, redirecting the attacker's move, certain punches, and certain kicks are good to get someone off of you. Once you have some room, it's time to draw and shoot. You will also learn how to deal with situations that do not involve lethal force.

Remember, your opponent is better than you. He spent 5 years in jail training every day for that moment for which you probably never trained at all. He attacked you with a concrete plan, while you have to defend yourself unexpectedly. He has a backup plan, while you didn't even had a primary plan. Such encounters are quick and violent. Be prepared for that.

 

[golddigger14s]

This is why I carry. I'm to old to go hand to hand.

 

[SmiddySW]

Sure! The Internet is a good place to offer theories that don't work in practice, especially when mixing in all kinds of assumptions and constantly changing the discussed situation when challenged. Want to learn something about hand-to-hand combat? Take a force-on-force firearms training class and join an MMA club.

Make sure you have a clear objective. Is your objective to survive, or is your objective to give the other guy an a$$ whooping? Play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Always assume that your opponent is better than you and armed. Failure to do so, i.e., overconfidence, will get you killed.

There are all kinds of self defense skills that do not involve using your firearm. There are also all kinds of self defense skills that do involve using your firearm. What techniques actually work depends on the defender, the attacker and the situation. The Internet is really not the right place to learn any of this.

At a force-on-force firearms training class and in an MMA club you will learn the techniques that work for you. You will also learn techniques for different scenarios. You will learn how to block or deflect punches and draw your gun. You will learn that the most important things are: stay on your feet and protect your head and neck. You will learn that moving and leaning out of the direction of the attack, redirecting the attacker's move, certain punches, and certain kicks are good to get someone off of you. Once you have some room, it's time to draw and shoot. You will also learn how to deal with situations that do not involve lethal force.

Remember, your opponent is better than you. He spent 5 years in jail training every day for that moment for which you probably never trained at all. He attacked you with a concrete plan, while you have to defend yourself unexpectedly. He has a backup plan, while you didn't even had a primary plan. Such encounters are quick and violent. Be prepared for that.

I agree with most of this, and can assure u that my bases are covered. Thx for the reply


USAF(Ret)