Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

[BC1]

This weekend I held the class "NRA Personal Protection Outside The Home." Saturday was eight hours of lecture, bookwork, demonstration and dry-fire exercises. I had one student who felt the need to interject his opinion on everything that was said. He was bogging us down and we couldn't keep him quiet. I was the lead instructor and had two other NRA instructors and a SWAT weapons instructor working the class as we like a one-to-one instructor/student ratio during the live fire parts of the class.

Well today (Sunday) was the advanced live-fire exercises. Sixteen students overall and four at a time on the line (with four instructors). Then this particular student came on the line. Look out! He had much difficulty following instructions. First, we found him looking down the barrel of his loaded .45. He was warned and advised of the safety violations. A few minutes later another instructor caught him looking down the barrel. He was warned again and argued that he was not compromising safety on the firing line. Then the police trainer caught him loading the gun while pointing it directly at him. Lastly, I caught him with the loaded gun turned toward himself wiping some smudges off it. He then looked down the barrel again.

The police instructor requested he hand over the gun and step off the line. He refused. The LEO warned him to turn over the gun or he would forceably take it and arrest him. He begrudgingly gave it up. I locked the gun in the clubhouse and returned to the range to find him arguing that he wasn't doing anything wrong. Tried to tell me all the other instructors were wrong. These are well trained instructors with intuitive knowledge and extensive experience in personal protection. I believe they acted in the best interest of the club, the other students and our own personal safety (even though we all wear vests during live-fire). I refunded his money and repossessed his NRA certificate of completion. When the class ended he was escorted to the main gate, his gun was returned and the gate was locked behind him (he's not a member of this club).

In the event he shot himself or another student you can bet we would have been named in any lawsuit. Although we carry $6,000,000 liability insurance between us I believed that allowing him to continue presented significant liability to all involved. Ignorance at it's best. yet he's had a CCW permit for 25 years.I thought the LEO was going to choke him as he wouldn't shut up until threatened with police intervention.

The best part was that we had another instructor teaching "NRA Basic Pistol" in the clubhouse and this occurred while he was covering handgun safety. Those students got a good look at stupidity in action.

What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.

In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Was it this guy?

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My whole problem with all this safety stuff is that we aren't cleaning out the gene pool like we used to... That's why we have such a huge population of stupid people these days.... :biggrin:

 

[santa]

You absolutely did the right thing. He was compromising his and others safety. I can understand a novice making mistakes but that is why most persons take firearm training so they can learn how to do it the right and safe way. This person did not want to learn. You also should have given this 'know it all' a first prize trophy for stupidity. People like that give the rest of us a bad name. When (not if) this idiot does the wrong thing with his gun you can bet the 'Brady Bunch' will milk it for all its worth. I agree with you 100%. Good job.

 

[Grognard Gunny]

Personally, I believe you waited too long to take "terminal corrective action". I was pistol range safety officer/instructor at Gitmo during my "tour" down there..... My "policy" was, one warning. A repeat got you gone from the line AND the range.

I "busted" one young WM Cpl and a Navy LtJG in my time off my range. The JG tried to make a federal case out of it through his chain of command, but the Commander whose carpet I was expected to dance on, sided with me on the matter. (I wonder if the kid ever made LT?)

Besides, the safety of every person on that line depends on my doing my job... insuring that safety matters are strictly followed. I don't tolerate screw ups.

GG

[Edit]: ... and certainly don't want the mountain of paperwork ex post facto to a screw up. Heh. Heh.

 

[Grognard Gunny]

Was it this guy?

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My whole problem with all this safety stuff is that we aren't cleaning out the gene pool like we used to... That's why we have such a huge population of stupid people these days.... :biggrin:

I tend to agree..... except to note that the stupids often tend to "take" others with them when they make their terminal mistakes.

Just like bad drivers. I don't mind at all if they commit suicide in their vehicles. All I ask is that they don't take anyone else with them.

GG

 

[S&W645]

Did you know the person BC1? Could it have been a plant? 260.35 3(b) violation for sure if willful.

 

[BeauRyker]

Waited way too long, in my opinion. As a CCW instructor, I would have done whatever necessary to ensure that this moron never carried a firearm again. At least a loaded one....maybe he could handle one of those with the orange on the end! Sounds like his main problem is his attitude. Big problem. Huge!

 

[Felix]

Did we handle him correctly.

Absolutely...except you waited too long to boot 'em out, IMO.

Hope you didn't refund his course fee either.

 

[Griffworks]

I think you did the right thing, tho agree you probably should've terminated his time in your class by the second incident on the firing line. Not a condemnation, as hindsight is 20/20, of course. Just my opinion on the situation since you asked.

Good on you, regardless!

 

[roguejesse]

I think you have done the proper procedure in dealing with your student that was, and still is a hazard to anyone in close proximity. Unfortunately some people's egos can't handle being told/taught anything. When I taught SCUBA, some of the most problematic students were young male jock types.

I don't think he should of been expelled as quickly as some people suggested. But after a few serious safety violations, you had every right, and a duty to all around, to remove him.

Can you give us an idea of the student's age, body type, and a quick psych profile.

If this was a Quality Control safety check, as a previous member here suggested, I think that they totally crossed the line

 

[Oldgrunt]

.

I don't think he should of been expelled as quickly as some people suggested. But after a few serious safety violations, you had every right, and a duty to all around, to remove him.

This guy committed more than a few violations. It only takes one to kill yourself or others around you. I wouldn't want to be around him on a range
or in the same county.:no:

 

[paramedic70002]

I will admit that I have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun once or twice in the past. No digits anywhere near the trigger though. And I didn't do it at the range or in school, but in the privacy of my home, and alone.

This guy has probably done it thousands of times. So to him it's perfectly safe. Was his finger on the trigger?

I think this is one of those things that are dangerous and safe at the same time. Sure you are pointing a loaded gun at your eye/head. On the other hand, how many accidental shootings do we hear about where the guy is shot in the eye versus the hand or some other part of the body?

Not that I am condoning his actions, and I would have given him the boot the first time. Stuff like this shouldn't get a second chance on the range or in school. Once you hammer the 4 rules, enforce them.

 

[Babarock]

I'm with Gunny

The only thing you might have done is get rid of him faster.

Him arguing would have sealed his fate in my eyes.

 

[NavyLCDR]

For the official record... my official opinion, not worth the bandwith for you to read it anyway... is that he should have been expelled sooner. :biggrin:

Although, I still hold that doesn't do anything to cleanse the gene pool.... :laugh:

 

[Deanimator]

At our club we don't play around with safety.

If you're corrected and refuse to adjust your behavior, you're gone.

 

[fudo]

Personally, I believe you waited too long to take "terminal corrective action". My policy , one warning. A repeat got you gone from the line AND the range.

Besides, the safety of every person on that line depends on my doing my job... insuring that safety matters are strictly followed. I don't tolerate screw ups.

GG

Absolutely, First one is free, 2nd one, you're on the way home.

 

[BC1]

Thanks everyone. I agree, he should have been tossed sooner. Our police trainer was about to give him a "boot colonoscopy." We met today to discuss the situation on Sunday and how we might handle it in the future. The other instructors thought there was something "missing" in this guy.

I got an email from one of the students today that said...

"Bob In response to your post in usa carry forum, I was a student in your class that day and these are my thoughts. I think you and your staff showed remarkable patience and restraint in dealing with this person. It was like having Curly of the Three Stooges to deal with. On Sat. he was annoying, but on Sun. he was a life-threating situation. Perhaps this gentleman might benefit from a more basic course such as "Eddie Eagle", although I would not wish this guy on another NRA instructor. I thoroughly enjoyed your classes and cannot place a dollar value on the instruction I received. I will highly recommend your class to anyone considering carrying a fire arm for self-defense. You and your staff are truely professionals of the highest order."​

I'm humbled by this student's comments. Thanks to all of you for your advice. Next time we'll move faster to expell.

Stay safe out there,
BC

 

[Doc Mustang]

When I was stationed in Norfolk Virginia there was an old chief gunners mate that ran the range at Little Creek. He used to punctuate every range rule with the phrase "Or I will shoot you"

As in:

1. You will keep your weapon pointed downrange at all times...Or I will shoot you.

2. You will not load your weapon until instructed to do so...or I will shoot you

3. Should you experience a weapon malfunction you will keep your weapon pointed down range and raise your non firing hand for assistance...Or I will shoot you.

He wore a 1911 in a low slung thigh holster and everybody believed that he would not hesitate to shoot someone who got out of line...

As to your disruptive student, you absolutely did the right thing. He was a classic example of unconcious incompetance with delusions of baddassery. Good on you for not putting up with it and taking care of business.

 

[BlueMR2]

When I was stationed in Norfolk Virginia there was an old chief gunners mate that ran the range at Little Creek. He used to punctuate every range rule with the phrase "Or I will shoot you"

Sounds similar to a safety briefing I heard at one event. "Shoot the targets downrange or anyone pointing a gun at you"...

Of course, nobody shot anyone for the couple of accidental muzzle sweeps that did end up happening throughout the day, but it made everyone very aware.

In the original case, I'm surprised you didn't toss him earlier. Some of us are slower to grasp concepts and do make safety mistakes early on (remember, not everyone grew up with guns). Sometimes those of us that are very new make an error because we're hurrying, trying to not slow everyone else down. However, there's a difference between making beginner's mistakes and actively resisting knowledge/improvement. Sounds like this guy had multiple of the FAA's hazardous attitudes going on. I think that the basic concept behind those attitudes can be applied to gun safety as well. Eye of Experience #15:<br>Hazardous Attitudes Revisited

 

[Doc Mustang]

I will admit that I have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun once or twice in the past.

I think this is one of those things that are dangerous and safe at the same time. Sure you are pointing a loaded gun at your eye/head.

This is not good practice. I cannot comprehend any circumstance that would require my pointing a loaded gun at my head.

Later in your post you mention the "4 rules" They exist for a reason and should always be respected. There is no such thing as an activity that is dangerous and safe at the same time. There is only a continumm of risk. There are activities that provide an illusion of risk, such as riding a rollercoaster, and activities that provide an illusion of safety like SCUBA diving or rock climbing.

Pointing a loaded weapon in an unsafe direction is the first step in a chain of events that leads to accidental injury or death. Regardless of where one's fingers are located.