come-and-take-it-FL
Member
I recently had a discussion on Facebook with a friend in the UK. Our discussion began when I posted the following quote...
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -George Washington
The conversation that ensued went like this:
I would be interested in hearing feedback from any USACarry peeps...
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -George Washington
The conversation that ensued went like this:
Friend: great man... different times!
Me: It's the same dangerous and unpredictable world!
Friend: Washington was referring to the British army, an impending force. The gun laws in America create the opportunities for Newtown to occur, not prevent it
Me: Friend, I love ya, but we're not at all on the same page on this one... not even close. Creating a "gun-free-zone" does not safety guarantee. Had but a handful of teachers on that campus been armed, casualties would likely have been greatly lessened. Evil exists in the world—has since the fall of man—will until the perfect ONE returns. China recently had a similar incident where an evil man used a knife to murder school children. Guns, knives, sticks, or rocks... you cannot legislate away evil. Until CHRIST returns, I'll keep my liberties and my guns. I may not be able to altogether stop evil, but I'm not going to be an easy target. I'm armed... Don't Tread On Me!!
Friend: Love you too mate but can't equate anything I see in the NT giving weight to bearing arms. Do you think if Jesus were alive in America today he would carry a fire arm or find them acceptable? Violence begats greater levels of violence which is something Jesus most definitely was against
Friend: And I know it doesn't guarantee safety but it vastly restricts the opportunity for someone to get hold of a firearm and therefore what happened this week, last week in Newtown, earlier this year in a theatre, columbine etc etc . Have you heard much of Dunblane?
Me: I don't know... but HE did fashion a whip and forcefully eject a Temple full of corrupt money changers—over turning their tables and busting cages open allowing livestock and foul to escape. No doubt JESUS would have been on the same LIFE-restoring-mission in America today as he was in Israel 2000+ years ago. And, agreed... there is violence in this lower story that most certainly begets violence. But, there are times when violence serves the righteous purpose of stopping injustice.
Me: German believers must have bought in to the "let's be non-violent and give up our guns to the government" plan during the early part of last century. Everything was pretty cool until the Nazi government began exterminating a portion of their population... and taking countless lives across Europe and in Great Britain via nightly bombing raids. I suppose the German people did the right thing giving up their arms and weapons... because, after all it was a new day and age of civilized government. The government said it was the right thing to do in order to reduce violence and crime. And, after all... JESUS would surely not condone owning a weapon let alone using it to defend ones self, their family, or others against someone intent on stealing, killing, or destroying. Right?!
ME: But, thank GOD the English, Americans, and a host of others joined together to stand against evil and engage in a level of violence the world had yet to experience. All of that to put an end to the violence started by a German populace who willingly gave up their ability to defend their rights and liberties by entrusting all to their all powerful government. Any populace who trade liberty for security deserve neither and will eventually lose both.
ME: Bottom line is we live in a fallen world. There are bad guys out there. Unfortunately, governments can be infiltrated by bad guys. But, a populace well armed and trained in the knowledge of liberty and freedom will act when tyranny raises it's ugly head.
ME: There are some who agree with you—give up your weapons—let government take the responsibility for assuring your safety. The same argument is made with regards to healthcare. And, some believe its the governments job (or worse, the government can do a better job) of feeding, clothing, housing, and putting citizenry to work. I do not ascribe to that line of thinking. I'm not looking for a savior... I've already got ONE. Nor do I want a government who tells me how and when I'll eat, sleep, go to the doctor, or where to work. A government that powerful will eventually also tell me who, what, when, and where I'm allowed to worship!
ME: So, as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... and, by HIS grace, work and care for ourselves. When I get sick I'll go to the doctor and then pay the bill when it comes due. If someone tries to harm me, my family, or a theater full of innocent people, I will do everything in my power—use my gun, a knife, stick, rock, or hands—whatever I can do to stop the threat and put an end to their violence. If that's wrong, our definitions of "right and wrong" is way different!
ME: Cause although JESUS never drove a tank or dropped a bomb from a plane, I believe the allies stood for right when they engaged in a war to stop Nazi aggression. Just the same, I believe I would be right to use my handgun to stop an aggressor bent on taking life and harming others.
Friend: I can see what you mean with regards to wars etc, for that there's something called the just war theory.
Jesus fashioning a whip I think is different because he didn't actually strike anyone with it. Imagine had Peter held a gun in the garden.
Friend: I heard someone on the radio this week here talk about the American's distrust for their government. It's strange how differently our two nations see it.
ME: One of our best President's said it this way: "Trust, but verify." I simply want to maintain my ability to verify.
ME: By the way friend, I have looked this morning... and cannot find where JESUS mentions the "Just War Theory" in the NT?!
ME: I cannot because it was not a theory proffered by JESUS! It was Augustine of Hippo who was the first to assert that a CHRISTian could be a soldier and serve GOD and country honorably. He claimed that, while individuals should not resort immediately to violence, "GOD has given the sword to government for good reason. CHRISTians as part of government should not be ashamed to protect peace and punish wickedness."
ME: Augustine asserted, peacefulness in the face of a grave wrong that could only be stopped by violence would be a sin. Defense of one's self or others could be a necessity, especially when authorized by a legitimate authority.
ME: So who's the legitimate authority? "We the People" are the first three words of the preamble identifying those responsible for upholding the foundations of the American Constitution.
ME: The intent, articulated by framers of the document, is laid out in the remainder of the preamble, thus: "in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."
ME: In America, it is ultimately the responsibility of every citizen to uphold the values espoused in the United States Constitution. It is also my duty to ensure that my government is just and right. It's not a politician's job... it's mine... it's every citizens responsibility!
ME: In America, the legitimate authority is "We The People." We elect representatives to represent us, but ultimately WE are the United States government! The government doesn't own us... we own it!
ME: That's why I'll be vocal and active in maintaining my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. That's why I wholeheartedly agree with George Washington's words regarding the importance of a free people being armed and disciplined, with sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse. "Any" includes the would be thief, murderer, criminal; even our own government.
Me: It's the same dangerous and unpredictable world!
Friend: Washington was referring to the British army, an impending force. The gun laws in America create the opportunities for Newtown to occur, not prevent it
Me: Friend, I love ya, but we're not at all on the same page on this one... not even close. Creating a "gun-free-zone" does not safety guarantee. Had but a handful of teachers on that campus been armed, casualties would likely have been greatly lessened. Evil exists in the world—has since the fall of man—will until the perfect ONE returns. China recently had a similar incident where an evil man used a knife to murder school children. Guns, knives, sticks, or rocks... you cannot legislate away evil. Until CHRIST returns, I'll keep my liberties and my guns. I may not be able to altogether stop evil, but I'm not going to be an easy target. I'm armed... Don't Tread On Me!!
Friend: Love you too mate but can't equate anything I see in the NT giving weight to bearing arms. Do you think if Jesus were alive in America today he would carry a fire arm or find them acceptable? Violence begats greater levels of violence which is something Jesus most definitely was against
Friend: And I know it doesn't guarantee safety but it vastly restricts the opportunity for someone to get hold of a firearm and therefore what happened this week, last week in Newtown, earlier this year in a theatre, columbine etc etc . Have you heard much of Dunblane?
Me: I don't know... but HE did fashion a whip and forcefully eject a Temple full of corrupt money changers—over turning their tables and busting cages open allowing livestock and foul to escape. No doubt JESUS would have been on the same LIFE-restoring-mission in America today as he was in Israel 2000+ years ago. And, agreed... there is violence in this lower story that most certainly begets violence. But, there are times when violence serves the righteous purpose of stopping injustice.
Me: German believers must have bought in to the "let's be non-violent and give up our guns to the government" plan during the early part of last century. Everything was pretty cool until the Nazi government began exterminating a portion of their population... and taking countless lives across Europe and in Great Britain via nightly bombing raids. I suppose the German people did the right thing giving up their arms and weapons... because, after all it was a new day and age of civilized government. The government said it was the right thing to do in order to reduce violence and crime. And, after all... JESUS would surely not condone owning a weapon let alone using it to defend ones self, their family, or others against someone intent on stealing, killing, or destroying. Right?!
ME: But, thank GOD the English, Americans, and a host of others joined together to stand against evil and engage in a level of violence the world had yet to experience. All of that to put an end to the violence started by a German populace who willingly gave up their ability to defend their rights and liberties by entrusting all to their all powerful government. Any populace who trade liberty for security deserve neither and will eventually lose both.
ME: Bottom line is we live in a fallen world. There are bad guys out there. Unfortunately, governments can be infiltrated by bad guys. But, a populace well armed and trained in the knowledge of liberty and freedom will act when tyranny raises it's ugly head.
ME: There are some who agree with you—give up your weapons—let government take the responsibility for assuring your safety. The same argument is made with regards to healthcare. And, some believe its the governments job (or worse, the government can do a better job) of feeding, clothing, housing, and putting citizenry to work. I do not ascribe to that line of thinking. I'm not looking for a savior... I've already got ONE. Nor do I want a government who tells me how and when I'll eat, sleep, go to the doctor, or where to work. A government that powerful will eventually also tell me who, what, when, and where I'm allowed to worship!
ME: So, as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... and, by HIS grace, work and care for ourselves. When I get sick I'll go to the doctor and then pay the bill when it comes due. If someone tries to harm me, my family, or a theater full of innocent people, I will do everything in my power—use my gun, a knife, stick, rock, or hands—whatever I can do to stop the threat and put an end to their violence. If that's wrong, our definitions of "right and wrong" is way different!
ME: Cause although JESUS never drove a tank or dropped a bomb from a plane, I believe the allies stood for right when they engaged in a war to stop Nazi aggression. Just the same, I believe I would be right to use my handgun to stop an aggressor bent on taking life and harming others.
Friend: I can see what you mean with regards to wars etc, for that there's something called the just war theory.
Jesus fashioning a whip I think is different because he didn't actually strike anyone with it. Imagine had Peter held a gun in the garden.
Friend: I heard someone on the radio this week here talk about the American's distrust for their government. It's strange how differently our two nations see it.
ME: One of our best President's said it this way: "Trust, but verify." I simply want to maintain my ability to verify.
ME: By the way friend, I have looked this morning... and cannot find where JESUS mentions the "Just War Theory" in the NT?!
ME: I cannot because it was not a theory proffered by JESUS! It was Augustine of Hippo who was the first to assert that a CHRISTian could be a soldier and serve GOD and country honorably. He claimed that, while individuals should not resort immediately to violence, "GOD has given the sword to government for good reason. CHRISTians as part of government should not be ashamed to protect peace and punish wickedness."
ME: Augustine asserted, peacefulness in the face of a grave wrong that could only be stopped by violence would be a sin. Defense of one's self or others could be a necessity, especially when authorized by a legitimate authority.
ME: So who's the legitimate authority? "We the People" are the first three words of the preamble identifying those responsible for upholding the foundations of the American Constitution.
ME: The intent, articulated by framers of the document, is laid out in the remainder of the preamble, thus: "in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."
ME: In America, it is ultimately the responsibility of every citizen to uphold the values espoused in the United States Constitution. It is also my duty to ensure that my government is just and right. It's not a politician's job... it's mine... it's every citizens responsibility!
ME: In America, the legitimate authority is "We The People." We elect representatives to represent us, but ultimately WE are the United States government! The government doesn't own us... we own it!
ME: That's why I'll be vocal and active in maintaining my 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. That's why I wholeheartedly agree with George Washington's words regarding the importance of a free people being armed and disciplined, with sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse. "Any" includes the would be thief, murderer, criminal; even our own government.
I would be interested in hearing feedback from any USACarry peeps...
