Grand Rapids, MI, man awarded "Good Citizenship" award for telling off legal OC'ers

[ezkl2230]

Grand Rapids, MI, man awarded "Good Citizenship" award for telling off legal OC'ers

"GRAND RAPIDS, MI – Tim England, a city resident who confronted two gun-carrying men at a City Commission meeting, has been honored with an award “for his courageous act of good citizenship...”

England, who is president of the South Hill Neighborhood Association, attended the Dec. 18 City Commission meeting to speak about a proposed assessment to fund the new Pleasant Park. During the meeting, two members of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. spoke to the commission about a city firearms ordinance they believe conflicts with state law...

“I was absolutely blown away that in this country we can have a meeting like that in government chambers where someone can walk in with a gun strapped to their hip openly,” he said. “I couldn’t hold my tongue.

“I wasn’t just disappointed. I was appalled that they would come to a commission meeting where there were young children, and be that blatant. That was within five days of that shooting on the East Coast.”

One of the "two members of Michigan Open Carry, Inc." was the president of MOC. OC in Michigan is legal, and when in possession of a CPL, once can OC in a PFZ. Public building are not PFZ's in Michigan, so this man was given a "good citizenship" award for telling off two men who, as good citizens, were exercising their legal rights.

'Good citizenship' award for Tim England, who chided men carrying guns at Grand Rapids City Commission meeting | MLive.com

This was my response to the article and to those who posted negative comments:

Michigan is a pre-emption state. A city ordinance that violates state law is unenforceable. Period.

And, frankly, it doesn't matter if you agree with what they were doing or not. Michigan's Constitution states that the right to bears arms for one's own defense shall not be abridged (Article 1, section 6). It is our civil and LEGAL right to carry as Michigan citizens; the approval of others is not required to exercise that right.

As for the argument that it was somehow inappropriate to openly carry one's legally-owned firearm because only five days had passed since a madman illegally used stolen firearms to kill defenseless people, that is ludicrous. 26 people died because they were denied their right to defend themselves and because police aren't omnipresent. So in recognition of that fact, you would have all others forgo their legal right to defend themselves. That makes all the sense in the world. Punish the innocent, stifle their right to free speech, castigate them for the free exercise of their rights under both the Michigan and US Constitutions, exalt the man who harassed them. It's amazing how far we have fallen away from our historic ideals. There was a time when the exercise of one's Constitutional rights in the face of mounting social pressure to do otherwise would have been celebrated; now we honor the oppressor.

Mayor Heartwell, BTW, is a card-carrying member of Bloomberg's Mayors Against Illegal Guns and has become a fairly outspoken supporter of gun control. I wonder how long it will be until he institutes Bloomberg's warrantless, random stop and frisk procedures?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Kind of reminds me of this:
Armed men criticize Oak Harbor City Council for banning guns in parks - Whidbey News-Times

It is absolutely time that we started showing people the image of responsible citizens carrying guns for responsible self-defense. We need to quit hiding our guns from them like they are evil objects.

Notice on the Whidbey Times Article how most of the comments are in favor of the John Havercroft guy... I wonder who he is...:happy:

 

[tricolordad]

Kinda like winning an award for stealing a car.

 

[ezkl2230]

Kind of reminds me of this:
Armed men criticize Oak Harbor City Council for banning guns in parks - Whidbey News-Times

It is absolutely time that we started showing people the image of responsible citizens carrying guns for responsible self-defense. We need to quit hiding our guns from them like they are evil objects.

Notice on the Whidbey Times Article how most of the comments are in favor of the John Havercroft guy... I wonder who he is...:happy:

"Hoffmire appeared visibly shaken as he addressed the council over another matter. He said he had prepared comments, but couldn’t remember what he wanted to say after being scared by the two men with guns. He said a couple of other audience members left because they were also nervous to be around guns."

Nervous to be around guns. Speaker so scared he forgot what he wanted to say. Wow. How far we have fallen. When I lived in Baker City, Oregon, back around '80, we still had some folks walking around with six shooters on their hips. Not many, but enough. No one gave them a second thought or look. Of course, just about every pickup had a full gun rack in the rear window, too.

We've become a nation of dudes.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And... Mr. Shane Hoffmire stayed in the meeting for 20 minutes until he had a chance to tell everyone how scared he was. Shouldn't a person terrified for their life run out and call 911?

Here's the video:
Ms. VanDyke (I think) is first, Shane Hoffmire is second, I (ooops...I mean John Havercroft) is third, and Brian is fourth:

Link Removed

At 4:55 in this video is the terrified, visibly shaken Shane Hoffmire:

Link Removed

Notice how the first councilman to speak mocks Hoffmire. And that councilman is the most anti-gun one of the bunch.

 

[ezkl2230]

And... Mr. Shane Hoffmire stayed in the meeting for 20 minutes until he had a chance to tell everyone how scared he was. Shouldn't a person terrified for their life run out and call 911?

Here's the video:
Ms. VanDyke (I think) is first, Shane Hoffmire is second, I (ooops...I mean John Havercroft) is third, and Brian is fourth:

Link Removed

At 4:55 in this video is the terrified, visibly shaken Shane Hoffmire:

Link Removed

Notice how the first councilman to speak mocks Hoffmire. And that councilman is the most anti-gun one of the bunch.

Nah. His commitment to stay even when he feared for his life was, to use the words of the illustrious mayor who awarded our "good citizen" with his award, a “courageous act of good citizenship.”

Uh huh.

 

[mongo61]

Lets stand on the corner and tell off voters as they exercise their RIGHT to vote. Maybe one of us could get a Great Citizenship" Award.

 

[Panheadzz]

Maybe if he wasn't so stoned he would be able to remember what he wanted to say. I hear it makes you paranoid also. Here is a prime example. Hey, I'm not against medical or legalization but don't get stoned when you want to articulate your point at a city council meeting.

 

[islandnurse06]

Excuse me but I happen to know this man very well. Not only was he not Stoned he has never in his life been Stoned. Tired after a long day of work I'm sure. But who are you to Judge someone like that. I say it would take one to know one. So if you dont have your facts stright keep your oppinoin to yourself. At least hes willing to show up to meetings and know what is going on in our community every Month. Hes willing to stand up and fight for what he believes is fair and right. Hes not saying that he dont think no one should carry a weapon ever just not at a city council meeting where their is frequently a difference of opponion, And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School. I'm not against guns even a little bit, but I do believe there is a place for them and a city council meeting theres no reason there is already the police Chief there and hes packing, that should be enough.

Maybe if he wasn't so stoned he would be able to remember what he wanted to say. I hear it makes you paranoid also. Here is a prime example. Hey, I'm not against medical or legalization but don't get stoned when you want to articulate your point at a city council meeting.

 

[islandnurse06]

I didnt see that as a Mock, Gee people only see what they want to see.

And... Mr. Shane Hoffmire stayed in the meeting for 20 minutes until he had a chance to tell everyone how scared he was. Shouldn't a person terrified for their life run out and call 911?

Here's the video:
Ms. VanDyke (I think) is first, Shane Hoffmire is second, I (ooops...I mean John Havercroft) is third, and Brian is fourth:

Link Removed

At 4:55 in this video is the terrified, visibly shaken Shane Hoffmire:

Link Removed

Notice how the first councilman to speak mocks Hoffmire. And that councilman is the most anti-gun one of the bunch.

 

[santanzchild]

Grand Rapids, MI, man awarded "Good Citizenship" award for telling off legal OC'ers

The time and place is where ever the hell I am be it a school, park, or city meeting.

I don't know about your parks but the ones I have lived near are great places to get stoned, drunk, raped, and robbed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727

 

[HoJo]

Excuse me but I happen to know this man very well. Not only was he not Stoned he has never in his life been Stoned. Tired after a long day of work I'm sure. But who are you to Judge someone like that. I say it would take one to know one. So if you dont have your facts stright keep your oppinoin to yourself. At least hes willing to show up to meetings and know what is going on in our community every Month. Hes willing to stand up and fight for what he believes is fair and right. Hes not saying that he dont think no one should carry a weapon ever just not at a city council meeting where their is frequently a difference of opponion, And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School. I'm not against guns even a little bit, but I do believe there is a place for them and a city council meeting theres no reason there is already the police Chief there and hes packing, that should be enough.

You're right, we should only carry when we know we are going to be mugged or a crazed individual is going to storm into a city council meeting firing randomly at anything that moves. Since that didn't happen that night he should have known he didn't need to carry.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School.

I'm surprised you have to ask that. I wonder how many parents of dead children wished that there was someone there who had the means available to stop the criminal from killing their child. It may sound calloused, but its real. Or maybe there just weren't enough "no guns allowed" signs posted?

Let me ask you this.... why does the driver and rider in an armored car tranpsorting money have a gun? Does it equally bother you that they are carrying a gun? Or is it more important to you to protect money than to protect your children from a maniac carrying a gun who is going to march right into your no guns zone and shoot your children while you dial 911 and pray that a police officer carrying a gun will show up in time?

 

[NavyLCDR]

BTW.... welcome to USACARRY, islandnurse06. The biggest difference you will notice between us and groups like WashingtonCeaseFire and the Brady Campaign is that we will allow you to express opinions different than ours. You may get some strongly worded replies, but we still let you hang around. You won't find the opposing view on WashingtonCeaseFire or the Brady Campaign forums because they ban anyone that disagrees with them.

 

[Icemanii]

Excuse me but I happen to know this man very well. Not only was he not Stoned he has never in his life been Stoned. Tired after a long day of work I'm sure. But who are you to Judge someone like that. I say it would take one to know one. So if you dont have your facts stright keep your oppinoin to yourself. At least hes willing to show up to meetings and know what is going on in our community every Month. Hes willing to stand up and fight for what he believes is fair and right. Hes not saying that he dont think no one should carry a weapon ever just not at a city council meeting where their is frequently a difference of opponion, And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School. I'm not against guns even a little bit, but I do believe there is a place for them and a city council meeting theres no reason there is already the police Chief there and hes packing, that should be enough.

Why would someone who is carrying legally choose not to carry. Just because the Police Chief is there means what? As for for city playgrounds or schools, seriously? You are honestly coming on here saying Grand Rapids city playgrounds are safe havens for all to enjoy? No criminals ever go there?

I carry at those places because I love my granddaughter, which would be the reason I would be at those places. I try to do everything I can to make her safe, no matter where we are at.

 

[ezkl2230]

And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School.

Read the news much? Where are these mass shootings taking place? The gun show? No, at schools. And who's doing the shooting? Legal owners and carriers? No, mentally deranged individuals who have stolen or otherwise illegally acquired their firearms. Do you know how many kids are shot each year at playgrounds? Who did the shooting at those? Legal owners and carriers? No, gangbangers who have stolen or otherwise illegally acquired their firearms. Let's think about shootings at city council/school board meetings. Kirkwood, MO - 2008; mayor critically injured, 2 police officers (they were the first ones killed), 3 council members killed. Panama City, Fl - 2010; fired several shots, thankfully hitting no one, held the school board hostage, eventually shot himself. These are just a couple of examples. Again, who did the shooting? One was a felon who illegally acquired a handgun, the other was a man who, under MO law, should have had his license revoked after a history of run-ins with police evidenced a mental breakdown.

Sorry, your "reasoning" doesn't hold up. I understand your indignation at the way someone chose to characterize this man, but your questions and observations about the appropriateness of carrying in certain places simply don't hold up to scrutiny. If a deranged individual is determined to carry a firearm into ANY of the places you mentioned, the fact that there is one armed officer present is hardly going to deter them. In fact, THAT person is likely to be the first one targeted - and guess what, the bad guy has the initiative since no one is EXPECTING an attack at these meetings. And yes, I advocate carrying at church as well. There were 150 shootings ar churches in 2012 - none prevented or stopped by police. And in at least two incidents (Lakewood, CO, and Boiling Creek, FL), shootings were either cut short or prevented entirely by individuals who were legally carrying their firearms.

And by the way, it is noteworthy that there have been no mass shootings at any of the elite private schools that employ and deploy armed guards.

 

[tricolordad]

Excuse me but I happen to know this man very well. Not only was he not Stoned he has never in his life been Stoned. Tired after a long day of work I'm sure. But who are you to Judge someone like that. I say it would take one to know one. So if you dont have your facts stright keep your oppinoin to yourself. At least hes willing to show up to meetings and know what is going on in our community every Month. Hes willing to stand up and fight for what he believes is fair and right. Hes not saying that he dont think no one should carry a weapon ever just not at a city council meeting where their is frequently a difference of opponion, And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School. I'm not against guns even a little bit, but I do believe there is a place for them and a city council meeting theres no reason there is already the police Chief there and hes packing, that should be enough.

Blah blah blah...your friend is one big POS. Maybe I should tell him off for speaking at a city council meeting and have NAVYLCDR give me an award for it. Why not? He attempted to deprive those men of their constitutional freedoms. let's go eye for an eye. Those men were LEGALLY carrying. There is no such thing as a "correct time and place" by your definition. If a right becomes a right some of the time, it is just a privilege. Constitutional freedoms are not a privilege, they are a RIGHT which SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. You cannot claim to love your freedoms if you attempt to deprive others of them. If that's your attitude, pack your f'n bags. I shed blood for this constitution and I will over and over again.

 

[tricolordad]

Read the news much? Where are these mass shootings taking place? The gun show? No, at schools. And who's doing the shooting? Legal owners and carriers? No, mentally deranged individuals who have stolen or otherwise illegally acquired their firearms. Do you know how many kids are shot each year at playgrounds? Who did the shooting at those? Legal owners and carriers? No, gangbangers who have stolen or otherwise illegally acquired their firearms. Let's think about shootings at city council/school board meetings. Kirkwood, MO - 2008; mayor critically injured, 2 police officers, 3 council members killed. Panama City, Fl - 2010; fired several shots, thankfully hitting no one, held the school board hostage, eventually shot himself. These are just a couple of examples. Again, who did the shooting? One was a felon who illegally acquired a handgun, the other was a man who, under MO law, should have had his license revoked after a history of run-ins with police evidenced a mental breakdown.

Sorry, your "reasoning" doesn't hold up. I understand your indignation at the way someone chose to characterize this man, but your questions and observations about the appropriateness of carrying in certain places simply don't hold up to scrutiny. If a deranged individual is determined to carry a firearm into ANY of the places you mentioned, the fact that there is one armed officer present is hardly going to deter them. In fact, THAT person is likely to be the first one targeted - and guess what, the bad guy has the initiative since no one is EXPECTING an attack at these meetings. And yes, I advocate carrying at church as well. More than 40 people have been shot in churches just in the past few years by deranged non-members. And in at least two incidents (Lakewood, CO, and Boiling Creek, FL), shootings were either cut short or prevented entirely by individuals who were legally carrying their firearms.

Walk through Central Park, sit on the wrong bench on Ondossagon in Staten, you'll get another good answer tomwhy carry in a city park. TRANSLATION FROM THE ISLANDER TO THE ISLANDNURSE: Because JDub got his from Ray's trunk and he's been waiting for you to sit down so his friend can choke you out while he shoots you and robs you. Where is Jdub? In the park, hiding.

 

[JimTh]

Excuse me but I happen to know this man very well. Not only was he not Stoned he has never in his life been Stoned. Tired after a long day of work I'm sure. But who are you to Judge someone like that. I say it would take one to know one. So if you dont have your facts stright keep your oppinoin to yourself. At least hes willing to show up to meetings and know what is going on in our community every Month. Hes willing to stand up and fight for what he believes is fair and right. Hes not saying that he dont think no one should carry a weapon ever just not at a city council meeting where their is frequently a difference of opponion, And why have a gun a a city playground? Or at a School. I'm not against guns even a little bit, but I do believe there is a place for them and a city council meeting theres no reason there is already the police Chief there and hes packing, that should be enough.

I don't believe you really feel that way...do you? Oh My God...you do don't you?

Most communities have folks like your friend that the only place they can find purpose is at city hall meetings. They really make their pesky presence known to all. In our neck of the woods we call them EDP's (emotionally disturbed people). Maybe your friend should take up shuffle board down at the senior day care center...just a thought!

 

[BC1]

Know what think would have been justice? Him getting mugged on the way home. My dad always said the difference between an anti-gun pansy and a deliberate man is ONE GOOD MUGGING.
.
Drinking alcohol is also legal. Can I get a good citizen award for confronting him after a few beers. Hypocrits abound.