Glaser Safety Slug?

[jimmyjohn]

I have done some personal testing of the Glaser Safety, and the Mag-safe ammo in .45ACP,.38 special, .380 and .25ACP. To sum it all up they penetrate deeper than anything else that I tried (both ball and JHP) and they make a big cavity at the termination point of the channel. All of the rounds were very accurate at 25 yrds. especially the .25 ACP I could cover the group with my hand. Glaser says that glass defeats them and they recommend a double tap under those circumstances. Wood like 2x4's and hard oak planks do not stop them. They penetrate better than ball and make a big hole on exit. I have shot them into heavy polyethylene barrels 35 gal types the entrance hole is clean and the opposite side is full of a lot of little exit holes about two hand widths. The Mag-Safe are all I carry in the .25ACP and the .380. I carry JHP in all the other guns. I really like the Speer Gold dot JHP and JHP +P short barrel ammo for defense carry they function well are very accurate and penetrate deeply an excellent cartridge. Just my two cents from personal experience. I won't carry ammo that I haven't tested and I won't carry a gun that I haven't put 1000 rounds through under real world circumstances with reasonable accuracy.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I have done some personal testing of the Glaser Safety, and the Mag-safe ammo in .45ACP,.38 special, .380 and .25ACP. To sum it all up they penetrate deeper than anything else that I tried (both ball and JHP) and they make a big cavity at the termination point of the channel. All of the rounds were very accurate at 25 yrds. especially the .25 ACP I could cover the group with my hand. Glaser says that glass defeats them and they recommend a double tap under those circumstances. Wood like 2x4's and hard oak planks do not stop them. They penetrate better than ball and make a big hole on exit. I have shot them into heavy polyethylene barrels 35 gal types the entrance hole is clean and the opposite side is full of a lot of little exit holes about two hand widths. The Mag-Safe are all I carry in the .25ACP and the .380. I carry JHP in all the other guns. I really like the Speer Gold dot JHP and JHP +P short barrel ammo for defense carry they function well are very accurate and penetrate deeply an excellent cartridge. Just my two cents from personal experience. I won't carry ammo that I haven't tested and I won't carry a gun that I haven't put 1000 rounds through under real world circumstances with reasonable accuracy.

Geez, a thousand rounds of Mag-Safe 380 for testing, and a 1000 rounds of 45 Gold Dot just for testing must have been really expensive.

 

[jimmyjohn]

Geez, a thousand rounds of Mag-Safe 380 for testing, and a 1000 rounds of 45 Gold Dot just for testing must have been really expensive.

Sorry about the poor wording I used 40 rounds per gun of both Glasers and MagSafe and yes even that amount was expensive. I function fire and practice with all carry guns using ball ammo. The .45 was 230gr lead hand loads, the .38 was 158gr lead speer hand loads I believe it's been a while. The .380 was all S&B I really like there ammo very clean burning. The .25 was all winchester ball. Each gun took me about a week or a little more to shoot the 1000 rounds. sure I could have done it faster but I was having too much fun and wanted to make it last at least a little while.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

No offense intended. Just pulling your leg a little.

Good advice, good thinking.
You must trust your weapon and ammo.

Glazer is perfect for what it was designed to do: Not penetrate humans in thin clothing and hit someone behind them.

If you miss, it goes right through sheet rock like hardball and into someone on the other side, and never fragments in that person. Shootings have proved that.
That is something to seriously consider.

 

[jimmyjohn]

No offense taken ever

You are right about that they have plenty of penetration. I think I prefer the MagSafe. The biggest reason I looked into them years ago is ricochet problems.
I have heard that a 9mm can ricochet over 1500 meters and still split a skull. Glasers and Magsafe both come apart when they hit something like a curb.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Here's some reading. The Stasborg Goat Test where they shot goats to determine the nervous system incapacitation.

Link Removed

Here's the PDF of AIT Average Incapacitation Times. Last column to the right.
Notice that the most popular LEO bullets are among the longest times.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1012844/files/0701267.pdf

Is that because:
1) LEOs want/need more penetration
2) LEOs aren't shooting goats from 2 ft.

 

[jimmyjohn]

Thank you for the PDF

I have read the summary of the Strasbourg goat test but never the full document thanks for the posting. It is enlightening to say the least.

The pressure wave is what does the damage that's why a .30 cal high powered rifle is so effective.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I have read the summary of the Strasbourg goat test but never the full document thanks for the posting. It is enlightening to say the least.

The pressure wave is what does the damage that's why a .30 cal high powered rifle is so effective.

Incorrect supposition.

Each ammo caliber by each manufacturer has several different bullet designs. Each is designed to open at a different penetration depth. Some fragment immediately, some penetrate beyond 13" of flesh BEFORE beginning to open.

Hydrostatic shock, knocking out the nervous system, is a much debated subject, especially at velocities below 1500 fps, especially in handguns.

I have another thread on this forum that deals with this subject. Check it out, there is lots of excellent information from an expert in wound ballistics.

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/long...87-wound-cavities-penetration-bullet-yaw.html

Link Removed

I guess we have to conclude that goats, deer, large game, and humans have a different incapacition threshold.

Deer have a instant FLIGHT mode and run on maximum adrenalin until dead, even when shot through the heart or both lungs can get 100 yards away.
People have a strong tendency to just say "oh xxx" and stop fighting.

I think that Ayoob said it well: (close rendering) "If you point a gun at their genitals, that is more impressive than pointing it at their head."

We must also understand that in all these years there has not been a lot of real world shootings into humans with Glazers to give sufficient feedback.
In self defense we are not likely to be shooting through windshields or car doors.

 

[Hootus]

If you miss with a GLASER, it will still go through walls. If it does happen to pass through a person, then it should fragment (at least that is what was preached to me).

I've read several posts in this thread stating the view that Glasers may be a poor SD choice because of underpenetration but sometimes may be a valid choice because of overpenetration concerns in apartment or home fields with possible innocents beyond the walls. However I've read reports that these rounds "plug" while going through drywall and act like FMJ until hitting soft flesh. If true, that takes away the one advantage they would seem to possess, since they evidently penetrate walls just like other bullets.

Further confirmation or links to actual test results re: Glasers through drywall would be of interest, I would think.

In the meantime I'll stick with proven HP ammo.

 

[tpd223]

Each is designed to open at a different penetration depth. Some fragment immediately, some penetrate beyond 13" of flesh BEFORE beginning to open.

Respectfully sir, this is incorrect.

All bullets of the pre-fragmented type, and all JHPs, that actually expand when they hit tissue, do so in the first inch or so. This has been clearly shown in thousands of gelatin test shots of various bullets over the years.

Many non-expanding bullets can have a delayed effect, but this is due to late yaw factors. One such bullet would be the M855 5.56 "green tip" service rifle ammo, the M193 is also subject to this phenomenon.



I will throw the grenade that hasn't been dropped yet;

All credible evidence is that the in formation as to the "Strasbourg" (however it is spelled, I have seen several versions) goat tests were a hoax.

Even if they were not, choosing service or defensive ammo from these tests would be ill advised as the conditions used for the tests do not in any way replicate shooting at attacking bad guys.



If one wants defensive ammo in 9mm/.40/.45acp that works well on people, but still penetrates less than standard FMJ/JHPs on barriers, then the Federal EMFJ line is what they should choose as it has proven to be a bullet that reacts in this way.

The Critical Defense line of ammo may also be a good choice in this regard due to the characteristics of that bullet.

Personally, I used to worry about over-penetration on shootings a great deal, after many years on the street and seeing many, many shootings I don't so much anymore.
Most modern standard police service style JHP ammo, HST/Ranger-T/Gold Dot/etc. in any of the service calibers does a great job of expanding and staying inside the bad guy.

Having seen Glaser shootings on the street, I can not recommend that bullet at all. It does not display enough penetration in tissue to be trusted.

The quality control in the Mag Safe line is lacking in my observation and use of that ammo, and even if it were not the bullets are no better than the Glaser line in actual use. In fact, between the two, I have seen the Mag Safe fail to fragment several times in testing, thus acting like ball ammo. I have not seen the Glasers fail to fragment.


For apartment defense, which seems to be what some posters in this thread are worried about, then a shotgun loaded with large bird shot would be far, far more effective than a pistol loaded with sub-optimum ammo.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

#1 TPD223 = He stated "30 caliber high powered rifle".
The bullet response comment you quoted applies to all rifle ammunition (as it was a reply to his previous comment), not to Glazers.

#2 Looking at the pages linked in my previous post (page 5, post 48) is the Glazer results. Plugging and acting like fmj after sheet rock. For your convenience here is the link again.
Link Removed

Here is his concluding statement.
"Perhaps the point of greatest interest is the failure of the (9mm Glazer) bullet to reduce penetration when fired through
interior walls, as might occur in the event of a complete miss during a defensive shooting event inside a
structure – lethality of the round is actually increased by the presence of an intervening interior wall."

#3 Regarding the shot-gun in-home for defense,
I strongly suggest that everyone look at the penetration results of shotguns in my early link. His results show that a shotgun shot shells penetrate people and walls like a slug.

#4 Not trying to argue about penetration, etc.:

Conclusions written by a person who has actually treated and studied thousands of actual shooting victims IS a reasonable source, IMO.
You will note that his diagrams are not guesstimates, but actual drawings of wound channels that he has observed in FLESH and bone.
These should be valid concepts.
************
added

My conclusion/ opinion:

Based on everything that I have studied,

NO bullet of any type, and of any caliber used for self defense

loses any significant amount of lethality after penetrating sheetrock or thin 1/4" wood paneling.

(OK maybe 22 rimfire birdshot, but who would use that for self defense?)

DON'T MISS the perp.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I have another article about handgun shooting Texas deer and Javelina (knee high wild pigs, 35 pounds) that states that most hit the ground for a couple seconds, get up and run like hell until dead. Some don't drop at all with our "exotic handgun bullets".

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm vs 45.htm

 

[tpd223]

#1 TPD223 = He stated "30 caliber high powered rifle".
The bullet response comment you quoted applies to all rifle ammunition (as it was a reply to his previous comment), not to Glazers.

#2 Looking at the pages linked in my previous post (page 5, post 48) is the Glazer results. Plugging and acting like fmj after sheet rock. For your convenience here is the link again.
Link Removed

Here is his concluding statement.
"Perhaps the point of greatest interest is the failure of the (9mm Glazer) bullet to reduce penetration when fired through
interior walls, as might occur in the event of a complete miss during a defensive shooting event inside a
structure – lethality of the round is actually increased by the presence of an intervening interior wall."

#3 Regarding the shot-gun in-home for defense,
I strongly suggest that everyone look at the penetration results of shotguns in my early link. His results show that a shotgun shot shells penetrate people and walls like a slug.

#4 Not trying to argue about penetration, etc.:

Conclusions written by a person who has actually treated and studied thousands of actual shooting victims IS a reasonable source, IMO.
You will note that his diagrams are not guesstimates, but actual drawings of wound channels that he has observed in FLESH and bone.
These should be valid concepts.
************
added

My conclusion/ opinion:

Based on everything that I have studied,

NO bullet of any type, and of any caliber used for self defense

loses any significant amount of lethality after penetrating sheetrock or thin 1/4" wood paneling.

(OK maybe 22 rimfire birdshot, but who would use that for self defense?)

DON'T MISS the perp.

I may have mis-read before that reply. You are correct in all of the above, no arguments from me there.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I've got a lot to learn.
And at this rate, I will be 212 before I am ready to take the final exam.