Glaser Safety Slug?


NCjones

New member
Glad you're still with us! Great that the BG used a .22 mag and not a larger caliber. I would imagine things could have been a lot worse. The second and third "crack" noises you heard may have been as you described, possibly the BG dropping his gun? If your partner drew down on the BG, possibly the "snap" from holster? Lots of possibilities, just glad that they got you to the hospital in time for the doctors to patch you up.



gf




No kidding. A search revealed he had a 9mm Makarov in the house (old surplus gun). guess it was just my lucky day. I'm sure a 9mm wouldn't have been so forgiving.
 

BigSlick

New member
Frangible Ammo

Well today I uploaded the images since I am having trouble posting them here.
Here are the photos of my frangible test.
Load data: 105gr .40 cal. 6gr of HP-38.
I know water is not ballistics gel but it was sure fun. My wife didnt care for the little science experiment but my
2 sons thought it was cool. :biggrin:



Here's the link for the photos.

Link Removed
 

bbarton713

New member
I had Glaser Safety Slugs in my .357 Taurus revolver back in the late 80s. I fired one of the rounds into a sand pile and it was quite a site. There was a small hole but when we widened it and looked inside with a flashlight there was a large, round, area that glittered with BBs.

My first shot in the revolver after that was snake shot (lived in AZ) but the other five rounds were the safety slugs.
 

stateofbliss

New member
Amen, Glad you're still with us.

No kidding. A search revealed he had a 9mm Makarov in the house (old surplus gun). guess it was just my lucky day. I'm sure a 9mm wouldn't have been so forgiving.
Amen, Glad you're still with us.
I didn't know I had even shot myself until I began to see drops of blood on the floor (after being disappointed at the mere fact of an AD (or as clarified as an ND) in my home) about 5 to 7 seconds later after trying to see where the bullet may have hit across the room and finally looking down. There was no pain what so ever at the onset - where one would expect being shot at point blank would have at least made some impression.

It was a few steps to the sink where I rinsed the hand to discover it wasn't anything I would be able to fix at home. Trained as a first responder, I grabbed a kitchen towel off the counter and used it as a tourniquet and dialed 911. I grabbed another and used it as a compress. EMS took over, but had the wife been home we would have been racing to the hospital - same action you took.

I often wondered what level of first aid is taught to LE - IMHO a necessity (as the first responder) to be able to save their partner(s) or themselves situation - and regularly reinforce that knowledge. The Ft Hood shootings for example, people started 1st aid while the shootings were still going on.

Are patrol cars even stocked with a 1st aid kit? Someone could have helped you with a compress to have stopped the bleeding (maybe kept the car cleaner).

However, this is a glaser thread and I don't want to stray away off topic.
 

1911 Headbanger

Leave Me Alone!!!
Amen, Glad you're still with us.


It was a few steps to the sink where I rinsed the hand to discover it wasn't anything I would be able to fix at home. Trained as a first responder, I grabbed a kitchen towel off the counter and used it as a tourniquet and dialed 911. I grabbed another and used it as a compress. EMS took over, but had the wife been home we would have been racing to the hospital - same action you took.

I often wondered what level of first aid is taught to LE - IMHO a necessity (as the first responder) to be able to save their partner(s) or themselves situation - and regularly reinforce that knowledge. The Ft Hood shootings for example, people started 1st aid while the shootings were still going on.

Are patrol cars even stocked with a 1st aid kit? Someone could have helped you with a compress to have stopped the bleeding (maybe kept the car cleaner).

However, this is a glaser thread and I don't want to stray away off topic.

To answer your question, most L/E guys have very little First Aid Training. When I went through the academy, it was basically how not to do first aid and wait for medics. The only reason I had the knowlege was because I was a Paramedic on an Ambulance before I became a Police Officer.
 

Gordon Shumway

New member
Glazers are very good for apartment/home situations where wall penetration/ ricochet is undesirable. Discussing stopping power is somewhat moot. If the BG has armor, nothing to too good. If tee shirt, anything of sufficient caliber is ok. Most perps don't want to be shot. A well placed double-tap stops them. Problem with most self defense shooters is that they are untrained and ill trained, and most definitely insufficiently practiced. Training is more than hitting your target. Ever think of what to do if there are innocent people behind the bad guy you must shoot? Have you been trained to hit the floor and shoot upwards so that any overpenetration goes up and above those behind? Looking for the magic bullet is often a waste of time. An eyeball hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a 44 magnum. I carry a 1911 24/7 for decades.
 

6shootercarry

New member
If you want the best 9mm ammunition for stopping power and penetration, then use Winchester Black Talons which are very hard but not impossible to find (no longer made to my knowledge - but available at places like the gunbroker's auction site). They penetrate like a FMJ but expand even wider than a normal hollowpoint. I have several cases which I don't use for practice shooting but keep each of my magazines (inclluding the one in my Beretta 92FS) filled with this highly potent ammo. When it was available, it was for military and police use only - though citizens could (and can still) get it at auction sites like always.
.

Winchester Ranger T ammo. Same stuff... Winchester (not the govt) said LE only for purchase, but you can find it out there. Costs a little more but it's worth it. Many years back we did some testing with the original Black Talon ammo. 9mm fired from a Beretta 92C into 2 large dead pigs (had a friend who had a family pig farm). Very impressive damage.

Always looking for some to buy...
 

lorien

New member
Black Talons

I'm not sure that the Winchester Ranger T is the same as the Black Talon (though it may be similar) - the same reasons they took the originals off the market still exist so I doubt they'd be making more (if they were even allowed to make more). But I'm sure they're better than most 9mm ammo (even most HP ammo). If I ever run out of Black Talons (doubtful since I don't practice with them - I keep them in my extra magazines and loaded in my 92FS at home and very handy) then those will probably be my replacements (but I have a pretty good supply - not looking to buy any more at this point). Even though I'm going for a head shot at in-house ranges, this is still the ammo of choice (more than adequate penetratation and excellent expansion) - almost certain to do the job with one shot and I trust the ammo (though I would fire several just to be sure - I don't want to be shot myself (or have one of my familiy shot) because of a fluke or because I somehow just grazed the BG (VERY unlikely but not worth the risk) or because someone somehow (despite a head wound) survived long enough to return fire even once - especially if using a fully automatic weapon). The one downside is that you aren't going to be able to convince anyone you were merely out to wound using this ammo (but then again, neither is a head shot).

I was reading other posts here where people were discussing Glaser Safety Slugs. They are worthless IMHO unless you are so concerned about missing and going through a wall that you need this safety line (and I'm not about to miss at in-house ranges - in fact, I'm going for the head shot at those ranges just in case the BG is wearing a vest). Glasers break up too easily and especially in winter with thick coats, it's possible they could not even penetrate the clothing (if it was thick enough with enough layers - especially leather) let alone a vest (which the Talon's wouldn't penetrate either if it was Level III) - then you're in a lot of trouble because the BG is probably using FMJ or HP ammo (maybe even Talons though that's not very likely) which will almost certainly penetrate YOUR clothing (especially since you're inside and not wearing much). I'm not about to take that kind of chance. Even though a FMJ has more penetration power than a HP, it doesn't cause as much damage (but nevertheless, I wouldn't want to be hit with either and inside my house during a home invasion, I'm not going to wait for the BG to fire first. This is another reason not to use FMJ ammo - it has more penetration and could go through the target and perhaps even the wall afterwards (though I think standard FMJ doesn't have THAT much penetration power but it is more risky).

There are AP rounds that will penetrate even Level IV vests (and I'm not even talking about depleted uranium rounds which would do the trick but are hard as hell to get your hands on if you even want them - if they're even legal). The problem there is that they have TOO much penetration (unless you're fighting someone wearing a vest and you don't really expect that - and as I said, I'm going for the head shot inside the house). There a solid chest strike (or a head strike) could easily be a through-and-through (in fact, almost certainly will) and then the problem with the walls becomes a real problem because it could very easily go through one of them as well and then you're shooting somewhat blind and could shoot something/someone you don't want to hit (the point of the Glasers for people who can't shoot well enough to hit what they aim at at in-house distances which anyone using a firearm should be able to do with relative ease or should practice until they can.
 
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6shootercarry

New member
I'm not sure that the Winchester Ranger T is the same as the Black Talon (though it may be similar) - the same reasons they took the originals off the market still exist so I doubt they'd be making more (if they were even allowed to make more). But I'm sure they're better than most 9mm ammo (even most HP ammo). If I ever run out of Black Talons (doubtful since I don't practice with them - I keep them in my extra magazines and loaded in my 92FS at home and very handy) then those will probably be my replacements (but I have a pretty good supply - not looking to buy any more at this point). Even though I'm going for a head shot at in-house ranges, this is still the ammo of choice (more than adequate penetratation and excellent expansion) - almost certain to do the job with one shot and I trust the ammo (though I would fire several just to be sure - I don't want to be shot myself (or have one of my familiy shot) because of a fluke or because I somehow just grazed the BG (VERY unlikely but not worth the risk) or because someone somehow (despite a head wound) survived long enough to return fire even once - especially if using a fully automatic weapon). The one downside is that you aren't going to be able to convince anyone you were merely out to wound using this ammo (but then again, neither is a head shot).

I was reading other posts here where people were discussing Glaser Safety Slugs. They are worthless IMHO unless you are so concerned about missing and going through a wall that you need this safety line (and I'm not about to miss at in-house ranges - in fact, I'm going for the head shot at those ranges just in case the BG is wearing a vest). Glasers break up too easily and especially in winter with thick coats, it's possible they could not even penetrate the clothing (if it was thick enough with enough layers - especially leather) let alone a vest (which the Talon's wouldn't penetrate either if it was Level III) - then you're in a lot of trouble because the BG is probably using FMJ or HP ammo (maybe even Talons though that's not very likely) which will almost certainly penetrate YOUR clothing (especially since you're inside and not wearing much). I'm not about to take that kind of chance. Even though a FMJ has more penetration power than a HP, it doesn't cause as much damage (but nevertheless, I wouldn't want to be hit with either and inside my house during a home invasion, I'm not going to wait for the BG to fire first. This is another reason not to use FMJ ammo - it has more penetration and could go through the target and perhaps even the wall afterwards (though I think standard FMJ doesn't have THAT much penetration power but it is more risky).

There are AP rounds that will penetrate even Level IV vests (and I'm not even talking about depleted uranium rounds which would do the trick but are hard as hell to get your hands on if you even want them - if they're even legal). The problem there is that they have TOO much penetration (unless you're fighting someone wearing a vest and you don't really expect that - and as I said, I'm going for the head shot inside the house). There a solid chest strike (or a head strike) could easily be a through-and-through (in fact, almost certainly will) and then the problem with the walls becomes a real problem because it could very easily go through one of them as well and then you're shooting somewhat blind and could shoot something/someone you don't want to hit (the point of the Glasers for people who can't shoot well enough to hit what they aim at at in-house distances which anyone using a firearm should be able to do with relative ease or should practice until they can.

It is, just improved and modified, so yes and no same but different... Winchester stopped selling it for some time due to the media and the Brady bunch folks telling everyone how deadly it was. Winchester is making it again due to it's reliable expansion and stopping power. They changed the packaging and no loner use the black lubalox oxide coating. They call it Ranger T. It is Winchester that restricts the sale to LE. It's not illegal to own it or carry it. Some differences, but it's the same design.

Black Talon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peace
 

Gordon Shumway

New member
rumors and falacies

Rumors and Falicies in the Self Defense Realm

#1 Never shoot to wound. If you are not mentally willing for the recipient of your bullet to die instantly. sell your gun.

#2 Rumors of "magic bullets" and failures of such, are generally just rumors. Actual shootings provide concrete results. Shot placement is the most important. Also if you are worried about clothing and vests, you should be shooting a pointed bullet of maximum velocity.

(note= If a magic bullet was the prime importance, you would be carrying the hardest hitting round, .45 acp in 185 +P, such as CorBon or Golden Sabre. Check out wiki on hydrostatic shock.)

#3 In any self defense situation, resulting in criminal or civil litigation, you should NEVER have any weapon, ammo, or training questions that might allow a lawyer to twist you into being the bad guy. You will lose, unless you have many thousands $$$ for your own personal defense attorney and to hire expert witnesses.

Remember OJ. You might win a criminal proceding and then be sued for millions.

Looking up the Strasbourg test, you will note that Strasbourg Tests indicate that electronically monitored goats shot with fully fragmenting ammo such as Glazer and MagSafe are 'brain dead' in 1/2 the time of the best hollow point pistol ammo.
 

RPB

New member
"Remember OJ. You might win a criminal proceding and then be sued for millions"

Probably not in Texas
.... This Act took effect September 1, 2007.
AN ACT

relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

SECTION 1. Section 9.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding Subdivisions (4) and (5) to read as follows:

(4) “Habitation” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01.

(5) “Vehicle” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01.

SECTION 2. Section 9.31, Penal Code, is amended by amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (e) and (f) to read as follows:

(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 3. Section 9.32, Penal Code, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor [he] would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) [if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and

[(3)] when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor’s belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used [requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor].

(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant].

SECTION 5. (a) Sections 9.31 and 9.32, Penal Code, as amended by this Act, apply only to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is continued in effect for this purpose. For the purposes of this subsection, an offense is committed before the effective date of this Act if any element of the offense occurs before the effective date.

(b) Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as amended by this Act, applies only to a cause of action that accrues on or after the effective date of this Act. An action that accrued before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in effect at the time the action accrued, and that law is continued in effect for that purpose.

SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.


That said, you'd still be responsible for any stray sheetrock penetrating bullet going into the apartment next door. Glaser makes a blue, and a Silver. The Silver is a heavier shot that penetrates better, but I believe is still supposed to break apart in a wall. Most police agencies stopped allowing fangible ammo after having to shoot through a screen door and it coming to pievces prior to reaching the bad guy. But, frangible ammo may have its place if you are an apartment dweller or have other people in your house on the other side of whatever wall... Though if the bad guy is around the corner, you can't shoot him through the wall ...
 

Gordon Shumway

New member
Shoot through walls?

Does anyone in real life deliberately shoot through walls? not seeing the intended target?

try this in your mag:

2 fragmenting, 2 hollow points, etc.

alternative, 2 frags, 2 hp, 2 hard ball, etc.

If you can't get em in the first 4........ well.

My second mag is all deep penetration stuff. I can always change mags before empty.

30 year veteran
 

RPB

New member
Does anyone in real life deliberately shoot through walls? not seeing the intended target?
try this in your mag:

2 fragmenting, 2 hollow points, etc.

alternative, 2 frags, 2 hp, 2 hard ball, etc.

If you can't get em in the first 4........ well.

My second mag is all deep penetration stuff. I can always change mags before empty.

30 year veteran

Good idea mixing the ammo.
If I live alone in a brick house, all neighbors in brick houses (or no neighbors, out in the country), and an intruder is on one side of an interior wall in my hallway peeking around the corner through the doorway and shooting through that doorway, you bet I'd shoot him through the wall he is using for concealment. There's a lot more to hit through that wall that might stop him, than trying to get a quick head or hand shot. I'd shoot through a plastic garbage can he was hiding behind as concealment and popping up shooting, if he was inside my house shooting at me too. I can fix sheetrock and buy another grabage can cheaper than I can fix me, assuming I survived waiting for the intruder's head or hand to pop out to aim while adrenaline causes tunnelvision and my hand to shake. But on the other side of that wall, I can figure where most of his body is while he is peeking and aiming.
 

Gordon Shumway

New member
Not to be argumentative.....

but go look at a house under construction and look at the multiple 2x4s around doorways, even interior doorways, or open ends of halls coming into the room.
Take a little time to closely simulate and consider what it takes to make this kind of oblique shot. If you are at a 45* angle to the wall/door, your point of aim between 2x4s is less than two inches through the first wall. If you shoot through two walls, (a 90* corner), then the odds of making it are about like winning the lottery. (draw a picture, you will see that I am correct)

Consider how much ammo you might waste punching into a couple 2x4s and letting the bad guy know exactly where you are.

I am telling you sincerely after decades of real world existence....... movies are NOT the real world. Many of the things we THINK might work.... usually don't.

Also learning to shoot at an upward angle while hitting the floor is good training too. The BG isn't expecting you to be low, and if you over penetrate him, any innocents who might be behind him are less likely to be hit.

Plan to increase your odds of survival, not give the bad guy an edge.
A little planning like this is worth the time invested.

Ever been awakened at 1:30 am by a black silouette standing 8 feet from the foot of your bed? I was last year. Yes I sleep with my .45
it is NOT an experience that you want to call "fun".
Believe me.... you will be amazed at how fuzzy headed you are at that instant before the adrenelin hits....

Be analytical and pragmatic about all contrived scenerios.
We are talking about saving your life.
 

tpd223

New member
The Glasers are, across the board, a horrible choice for defensive ammo. They exhibit very shallow penetration when they work as designed, and act like lightweight ball ammo when they fail to expnd, which happens rather often.

The wounding that I have seen from Glasers in real life shootings has not left me impressed.

For the record, no handgun has "knockdown power", and the FAMs do not use Glasers or frangible ammo, they use Ranger-T in their .357Sigs.
 

1911 Headbanger

Leave Me Alone!!!
The Glasers are, across the board, a horrible choice for defensive ammo. They exhibit very shallow penetration when they work as designed, and act like lightweight ball ammo when they fail to expnd, which happens rather often.

The wounding that I have seen from Glasers in real life shootings has not left me impressed.

For the record, no handgun has "knockdown power", and the FAMs do not use Glasers or frangible ammo, they use Ranger-T in their .357Sigs.

In addition I will add, that several shootings have taken place where Glasers opened up in leather jackets and thick clothing, leaving nothing but the tiny shot left to penetrate the skin. Not a good tactical choice in my book. After testing in several situations and common scenarios when I was a LEO Instructor, our Department decided against Glaser Safety Slugs for any deparmental use.
 

Someday

New member
If you miss with a GLASER, it will still go through walls. If it does happen to pass through a person, then it should fragment (at least that is what was preached to me).
 

Gordon Shumway

New member
There is no "magic bullet" that will do all things in all situations. period.
Glazer is designed for limited wall penetration (indoor defense) with reasonable stopping power.

2 Glazers followed by Golden Sabres pretty much covers it.

Start thinking = One shot, one kill.
Don't spray ammo like the movies.
 

cooper boy

New member
glasers work

Has anyone tryed the glaser "safety slug" ammo? They clam to offer more stoping power, and less chance of over penetration. Can a bullet stop a BG, and NOT shoot through interior walls if you miss? It almost sounds Sci Fi to me but they have been around like 30 years or so any one tryed them?

I've used them in a 9mm. BG was 6'3plus,245. Instant shock effect lights out. He died later at the hospital. They dispatched the BG as I would expect, based on everything I had read about them and there was a friendly directly behind him! I keep five on top with ten silvertips to finish the mag-I have bet my life on that hand!
 

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