Fully automatic Submachineguns should be reinstated in America

[Submachine]

I submit to you all America must allow its citizens the right to purchase fully automatic assault weapons.
America is at war. The terrorist all have fully automatica AK47 assault rifles, so should law abiding American citizens.!

 

[ConfusedDevilDogSoldier]

You want America to allow you a right you already have (assuming you're not a felon)?

 

[Booga]

I believe he's referring to the fact that you can't own one is many states. Second, you have to file for a specific and seperate firearms license to own one.

Lastly, the full auto versions cost insane amounts of money in comparison to the semi-auto version here in the US. A $400 full-auto AK-47 sold around the world could be $2000 or more depending on where you are in the US.

 

[ConfusedDevilDogSoldier]

you have to file for a specific and seperate firearms license to own one.

You have to file paperwork, wait your time and pay the tax, but you don't receive a "license".

It is true that some states bar ownership, but that's not "AMERICA", that's those specific states. "America" allows it.

I do agree that only pre 1986 weapons can be purchased is BS... That's why the price is so fricken high.

 

[MightyPirate]

You know, I really have no issue with having to wait and file paper work to own an automatic weapon. There's very little reason to own one, for home defense they won't beat out a shotgun and they're rather impractical for carrying around the city. I've had a few friends in law enforcement, and I've had the chance to shoot some automatic weapons and they are a ton of fun to shoot. But seeing as how most ranges bar their use I haven't had any desire to jump through the hoops to pick one up. So short of a zombie invasion there's not much reason to own one other than the joy of shooting and to take full advantage of your second amendment rights. Seeing as how there's no immediate need for owning one, I fail to see the problem with filling out the paperwork and playing the waiting game to own one.

 

[nogods]

How effective is a fully automatica AK47 assault rifle against an envelope containing anthrax? The terrorists will get you to open it by using a return address of "fully automatica AK47 assault rifles licensing division"

 

[BigBadAllis]

I'm all for our rights, and own many guns. I don't think owning a full auto is a right. I think someone who is not properly trained, experianced or trying to use it at the wrong place is dangerous to everyone around them which will cause the rest of use to have to defend our rights to bear arms even more. I know I'll open a can of worms and so be it.

Jason

 

[Booga]

BigBad, I'm with you up to a point.
People cannot get training or experience if they can't get access to this type of equipment. There will be a transitional period as more people get training. That is expected. I still agree with the OP here that it would be nice if full-auto guns were available to those who wish to have them.

There are many other reasons for full-auto ownership that I won't go into here, but the OP mentions terrorism. In India there was an attack on a hotel known for housing Americans. The attackers had full-auto rifles. The general public had nothing but sticks and rocks. The police response was underwhelming...

If the populace is armed appropriately, then they can respond to that sort of thing before it reaches such astonishing levels of horror.

 

[maybejim]

I submit to you all America must allow its citizens the right to purchase fully automatic assault weapons.
America is at war. The terrorist all have fully automatica AK47 assault rifles, so should law abiding American citizens.!

That would be the logical deduction from the 1939 Miller v US SC decision.

 

[MightyPirate]

There are quite a few places where you can try out fully automatic weapons. While the focus is more on the fun of shooting them and not learning how to properly handle them. There are courses that teach you how to handle and fire long guns, and automatic weapons differ very little, other than learning that holding the trigger down decreases accuracy to the point where the weapon is ineffective. So you'll want to use short controlled bursts to maintain accuracy and safety.

Your anecdote about India doesn't provide any mention of why the citizens should have been armed with fully automatic rifles? If they had been armed in any sort of manner they would have had a much better chance than using stones and sticks. And not to be rude, or uncaring but problems in other countries can not be tried to form America. If that was the case one could use the argument that the UK restricts firearm ownership severely. Why wouldn't we? (I'm not making that argument, look at their murder rates and you'll see there's no correlation between legal gun ownership and homicide rate).

I would also like to point out that illegal guns in this country largely come from stolen legally bought weapons. If fully automatic weapons were as prevalent in legal owners hands then so would thugs with full auto weapons. Despite the movies, tv shows and special interest pieces saying other wise, criminals with full auto weapons are still relatively rare. The most confiscated and popular weapons with criminals are .38 revolvers and small caliber semi-auto pistols.

And I would also like to reiterate, there is nothing stopping you from owning a fully automatic weapon. There are certainly restrictions, but nothing in the federal law prohibiting you from owning one. With the proper paper work and taxes anyone who doesn't have state or county restrictions can own one in this country. So the argument that they are not available is slightly misinformed.

 

[OUTTAHERE]

MightyPirate is correct. If you have a clean record, $200 for a federal registration fee and then the price of the machinegun, then if your state allows ownership of machineguns then you're in business. Find a Class 3 dealer in your area and they can
help you with the paperwork. The same is true for silencers or suppressors.

 

[Booga]

What good is owning one if you can't have it? It looks like about 20% of the states forbid possession of the gun.
If one has to drive hundreds of miles to go get it, it's not exactly what I'd call available.

Second, as things get old and break, nobody can get a replacement that is newer than 1986. Thus, it is guaranteed that as time passes by, less and less will be available. This makes the price go up to the point where only the rich can afford one.

 

[ConfusedDevilDogSoldier]

What good is owning one if you can't have it? It looks like about 20% of the states forbid possession of the gun.
If one has to drive hundreds of miles to go get it, it's not exactly what I'd call available.

Second, as things get old and break, nobody can get a replacement that is newer than 1986. Thus, it is guaranteed that as time passes by, less and less will be available. This makes the price go up to the point where only the rich can afford one.

Well then you, along with the rest of us should hope that the SCOTUS does the right thing and upholds the 2nd vs. the states like the other amendments. But it is not AMERICA that is stopping anyone, like the OP stated.

And, I concur with the pre'86 B.S. But buy a couple and watch your investment soar.

Really, you are better off with a semi-auto anyway. Better shot placement, less wasted ammo. And don't clear a room with an full auto around me! Tactically, a full auto is only good for laying suppressing fires (unless we're talkin' sub). Show me some realistic scenarios where that would be important around here (short of a full enemy invasion). And, just because people own them, does not make them capable of effectively deploying them. That requires close coordination with other team members. Training with your neighbors?

Oh, how much ammo can you afford? Will it be enough to accomplish the training needed to be effective?

I'd love to have an arsenal, don't get me wrong. But it is very expensive, beyond just the cost of weapon.

 

[Submachine]

BigBad, I'm with you up to a point.
People cannot get training or experience if they can't get access to this type of equipment. There will be a transitional period as more people get training. That is expected. I still agree with the OP here that it would be nice if full-auto guns were available to those who wish to have them.

There are many other reasons for full-auto ownership that I won't go into here, but the OP mentions terrorism. In India there was an attack on a hotel known for housing Americans. The attackers had full-auto rifles. The general public had nothing but sticks and rocks. The police response was underwhelming...

If the populace is armed appropriately, then they can respond to that sort of thing before it reaches such astonishing levels of horror.

This is exactly what I am saying. In India there were Terrorist that used fully automatic AK47 assault rifles.
If a similar scenario materialized here in America, we would have to wait for SWAT police response to counter such an attack. Who knows how many innocent people would have to die in a situation like that.?
We need the Federal government to legalize Fully automatic weapons for the citizens of the United States now.!

 

[Aresye]

To start off, I love machine guns, and fully-automatic assault rifles. I train with them day in/day out as part of my job, and this is my opinion based off my limited experience.

We use our automatic selection and machine guns for suppressive fire, not for attack. It's used as a means to keep the enemy's head down in order for us to get away, or keep the bad guys off the good guys for a few seconds. Using full auto highlights your position, will 99% of the time not hit your target, and is a waste of ammo. If you're concerned with having a full automatic weapon for the purpose of self-defense, especially a crisis situation, it's not going to help. In fact it will likely do the opposite, by making you the #1 target, running out of ammo early in a firefight, and/or degrading the gun's accuracy due to heat (only machine guns are designed for continuous, sustained automatic fire).

If you're planning on room clearing (which I doubt), that's the only reason I see fully auto becoming useful, and only for smaller sub-machine guns. In the open or urban environment, which will be the two most likely places in a SHTF situation, nothing beats sound tactics, and some well placed shots. If I'm across the other end of a field or alley, and somebody opens up on me with a full-auto rifle, I'm dropping to the ground, and firing 2-3 well aimed shots. Having such a low profile makes it very hard to hit me, especially on full auto. On the other hand, I know exactly where they are, have a more stable shooting position, and can easily get many well aimed shots down range with a good optic. It's kind of like the sideways grip. Bad guys stock up on illegal full-auto weapons. Will it help them? No. I'd rather face a mafia spraying and preying with AK-47's, than some tactically sound mob with good sharpshooters and optics.

Burst fire is sort of a gray area. It's very useful if you can control it, but once again it comes down to bringing your target on sight quickly and effectively.

Machine guns are a whole different area, because they're designed to fire accurately, fast, and with the ability to change out barrels on the spot. Assault rifles on full auto are mainly used for suppressive fire, and very rarely used on an attack (planning an ambush?).

If you're in a situation in which you need suppressive fire, and don't have a full auto, you can still bump fire your weapon to get the enemy's head down. Not a tactic I particularly recommend, but it's an option so you can get away.

Before you decide to invest in one, I strongly recommend going to a machine-gun convention, or a range that allows full auto (most ranges, including military, have dedicated ranges for full auto, and very strict rules regarding using them). Set up a target 50m away (close for an AR engagement), and run a mag through. Controlled bursts, full-auto, etc. See how many rounds actually hit the target.

I'm all for 2A rights, but I don't believe that means everybody has a right to own whatever they want. A legalization of class-III weapons for the general public on a wide scale, will just make those random mass shootings even worse (I almost sound like a gun-control freak, lol!). It puts us as open and concealed carriers at a severe disadvantage, unless they decide to let everybody walk around with a full-auto rifle, and that's not the type of America I want to see in the future.

 

[MightyPirate]

You don't sound like a gun control freak, and I somewhat resent the belief that any sort of gun control is unjust. I'm glad that I have to go through a waiting period, I'm glad that they do background checks, it helps keep firearms out of the hands that will misuse them. And as you've stated fully automatic weapons have no place in any situation we're bound to encounter, short of a scenario straight out of Red Dawn.

If 'terrorists' come marching down my street I would much rather trust in my .300 win magnum than a fully automatic weapon. I may not have as many rounds as them, but I can guarantee I will make everyone of them count. Automatic weapons have the tendency of placing a needless amount of rounds into each individual talent. Why would you need to shoot someone 6 times when the first round is the one that killed them in the first place?

And as it's been stated before, if you live in a state where they're hard to receive you can either have one shipped to a qualified FFL dealer close to you. If you're state is such an issue you can always move. The great thing about our country is that we have state rights, and because we have rights of our own you can always fight to change them (politically, not physically). If it's that big of an issue take it up with your legislators. You do have options, just because they aren't handed to you on a silver spoon does not make them any less accessible or reasonable.

 

[Booga]

Oh, how much ammo can you afford? Will it be enough to accomplish the training needed to be effective?
I'd love to have an arsenal, don't get me wrong. But it is very expensive, beyond just the cost of weapon.

It'd be nice to apply $1600 of the $2000 fully auto firearm purchase towards ammo. That'd buy a lot of ammo for training.

As for situations that we would encounter...
There was an American civilian that had an encounter with terrorists in Afghanistan(might have been Iraq, but I'm pretty sure it was Afghanistan). He was at a hotel known for housing American journalists. Some terrorists attacked the hotel, seeking out American victims. He had purchased a full-auto AK-47 while he was there. He laid down suppressive fire allowing dozens of hotel guests to escape over a wall behind him. I'm sure that everyone who was able to escape would be thankful for his actions and acknowledge that his equipment helped enable his effectiveness in holding off the terrorists.

I'm not saying that full-auto firearms are some kind of miraculous savior. I'm not trying to start some kind of flame-war. I'm saying that they have their place in the hands of the general public. If you have the willingness to train yourself, the ability to use one, and self-control to be able to responsibly own one then full auto firearms should be more available.

 

[MightyPirate]

Yet again. Stop laying down situations that are happening in other countries, they do not apply to us. American business men have an incalculable higher chance of getting attacked by terrorists over in Iraq/Afghanistan. Mainly because that's where the majority of terrorists are. Unlike in those area's we have people that are going to report to the authorities, news, twitter the moment a group of armed men in dresses parade down the street with AK47's towards a hotel. This would be a legitimate concern over in the middle east, which is why apparently you can buy an AK47 rather easily. Of course the ability to easily purchase automatic weapons also contributes to the TERRORISTS having the weapons. If you had to fill out a form, get finger printed and pay a tax to buy an assault rifle over in Iraq I guarantee there would be a lot fewer automatic weapons in the hands of the bg's. Yet again, your scenario isn't anything that can't be handled with easier to obtain weapons. My Mini-14 has an incredible rate of fire, in fact if you want to get technical it has a higher cycle rate than an AK 47 (750 vs 600, of course both of these numbers depend on one very large quick and a sturdy finger). I would also point out that all the new automatic weapons issued to our troops have a selective fire switch, because they've come to realize it's not needed and ineffective 99% of the time-and they're in WAR. Back in 2003 or 2004 the armed forces started busting out the M14, they'd take accuracy, distance and stopping power over a high rate of fire. I'm going to assume trained soldiers have a pretty good idea of what's effective.

For the final time, you can not take a specific scenario from another country and try and apply it to a different country. You can have sex with underage girls in these same countries you're pointing out. Should we also pick up these habits, I mean hey it seems to be working out for them ok. As long as you don't ask the young girl being molested it would appear that everyone's having a grand old time. Hindu's find the idea of eating cow's disgusting, should we ban porterhouse's? It is a different culture, with different issues from our very country.

There's also the issue of how terrorist's actually operate. They don't have that many members, sending out a squad of men armed with machine guns is no where near as effective as an explosion. So unless your fully automatic weapon can disarm a bomb it's not going to do a whole lot of good against them. If terrorism is such a big fear for you I suggest learning how to dismantle IED's, Dirty Bombs, Neutralize Anthrax, etc. etc.

And finally, really, $2,000 is a perfectly ordinary amount of money to spend on a rifle. I spent nearly that amount on a Sharps Rifle, which fires ONE bullet before you need to reload. I spent $1,400 on a 1911 that holds all of 7 rounds in a clip. If the only thing stopping you from owning an automatic weapon is the cost I suggest getting a better job, or you can always move to Afghanistan where they apparently give them away. You can get plenty of training in the field over there, your ability to use one will greatly increase assuming you survive, and if you can master the self-control not to evacuate your bowels in your fruit of the loom's you're golden.

 

[SpaceFrank]

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

 

[MightyPirate]

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Also this notion that your rights are being infringed on is ludicrous. You have the right to own a machine gun, if you can't afford it that's not the governments fault. If your don't live near a gun shop with the proper designation to sell them, not the government's fault.

As has been stated to many times to count in this thread. YOU CAN OWN AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON. If you can not afford one, are to lazy to go through the channels, have a felony record, or live in a state that prohibits them that's your fault. There are 34 states that allow the ownership of automatic weapons. If you live in one of the other 16 move if it's so important. Or once again, get active in your states politics. If no one does anything about it, how can you expect changes to occur?