full metal jacket


Graylon

New member
I was wondering what would be disadvantages and advantages of carrying hardball or hollow points. I'm more so thinking of the prices. I carry .45 if i go with regular hardball I can practice and carry and have no differences. I do know walking around with gold dot .45 acp is on another level but I feel very comfortable with fmj. I'm up for any suggestions.
 

apvbguy

New member
hard ball has over penetration issues, other than that some people believe that HP rounds cause more internal damage because the bullet expands.
either way shot placement is key.
 

missoak

Member
Yeah, even if the original shooting proves to be justified, any collateral damage would not.
Practice as much as you can afford with your carry ammo, make sure it functions flawlessly.
Your range ammo should work good too, but not as important as the carry stuff.
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
The amount of rounds that completely miss their intended target, whether it's police or civilian, and hit a bystander going full velocity, is so significantly small, worrying about one that would pass through seems irrational.

As noted earlier, it's a combination of placement, depth, and diameter of the wound channel that counts.

You first have to hit your target, in areas that will stop the threat fast. This goal is usually gained by using the proper caliber and trigger time for the specific shooter.

Then you have to reach the critical areas (cns or main artery or vein). This is done by using proper ammunition.

If you can reach the critical areas, the amount of error in aiming can be compensated with a larger diameter. A 9 mm [0.35"] may expand to a .45, but a .45 will not shrink to a 9mm. If you take a .45 FMJ [0.45"] and compare it to an expanded .45 jhp [0.80 - 1.00"], a hollow point can be roughly 0.25"-0.50" off and still damage the vital area compared to a 9mm fmj, jhp, or .45 fmj.

This is why I choose to use JHP.

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Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
Put me in a cold environment, where heavy clothing is normal...I'd have to go with a +p+ jhp or a fmj to ensure proper depth.

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Graylon

New member
That's just it with hollow points... I would figure they could over penetrate too. Especially the bonded ones. They go through windshields and what not. The only thing you miss is the expansion with hollow points as far as .45...
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
That's just it with hollow points... I would figure they could over penetrate too. Especially the bonded ones. They go through windshields and what not. The only thing you miss is the expansion with hollow points as far as .45...

Jhp are meant to expand in soft tissue.

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The amount of rounds that completely miss their intended target, whether it's police or civilian, and hit a bystander going full velocity, is so significantly small, worrying about one that would pass through seems irrational.

unless i misunderstood your comment-
I'm speaking of the FMJ hitting the target & passing thru (rather than mushrooming & staying put) - and hitting whatever else behind it.
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
unless i misunderstood your comment-
I'm speaking of the FMJ hitting the target & passing thru (rather than mushrooming & staying put) - and hitting whatever else behind it.

No, I think you got it right. The amount of times a bystander has been hit by a stray bullet is so small (where the bullet holds its highest potential, and is going in a straight line from the barrel to its impact), worrying about a round that will be significantly slower and more often than not in another direction after it passes through a body, is irrational.

Maybe that's a little harsh, but we are talking handgun calibers. Should it be thought of when choosing ammunition? Sure, there is nothing wrong with thinking about every aspect...but over penetration is not one i personally put at the top of my priority list...If anything under penetration is more of a concern for me.

FBI academy firearms training unit manual titled “Handgun Wounding and Effectiveness”.

"An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration (i.e. Glaser Safety Slugs, .380, 9mm, etc.) will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

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bofh

Banned
There are several different issues here:

  • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
  • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
  • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.
Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:

Using a 230-grain projectile at 850 feet per second from the muzzle, it’d penetrate through that 9″ torso and when it overpenetrated it’d still be going 498 feet per second. That would give it enough energy to be able to penetrate over 16″ of ballistic gel, definitely capable of a fatal hit. But let’s put it in perspective — let’s say that the .45 ACP FMJ penetrated through the 9″-thick attacker, and continued on to hit a bystander — at 498 feet per second, it’d have enough energy to easily pass completely through 9″ of bystander, and still be going at 252 feet per second! After exiting the bystander, it’d still maintain enough energy to reach almost 8″ deep into ballistic gel — again, far enough to cause serious damage, and depending on where it hits, it may even cause a critical/fatal hit on a person behind the bystander behind the attacker. Yes, one .45 ACP FMJ could pass completely through two people and lodge deeply enough in the third to cause a fatal hit.

Is overpenetration a concern?

Yes, but it’s only a significant concern if you’re foolish enough to load your defensive weapon with FMJ bullets instead of hollowpoints. If hollowpoints are legal for self defense where you live, USE THEM. They’re much more effective wounders, they’re much more likely to stop an attacker, and they vastly minimize any risk of overpenetration. A hollowpoint expands so large that it slows down dramatically while it’s traveling through the attacker’s body; even if it overpenetrates it’ll be going so slowly that it won’t be nearly as dangerous as an FMJ would be. The only time I’d recommend against hollowpoints is when you’re using a tiny caliber (specifically .22LR, .25 ACP, or .32 ACP) where there just isn’t enough energy available to push a hollowpoint deep enough to cause a critical hit — in those cases, you have to go with a non-expanding bullet; wadcutters would be preferred, but use FMJ’s if you can’t get wadcutters.

In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
There are several different issues here:

  • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
  • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
  • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.
Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:



In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.

Did they actually test this? I read through their article but found no test...they just know the numbers...where did they get their numbers from?

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Graylon

New member
There are several different issues here:

  • A round-nose FMJ will pass straight through, keeping a lot of energy. Depending on the angle the round is traveling, it may end up hitting someone a few miles down the road with enough energy to injure or kill someone.
  • A flat-nose FMJ may tumble while passing through and even change direction. It may or may not keep a lot of energy. It may or may not travel a significant distance beyond its target and injure or kill someone.
  • A decent JHP will reliably expand and dump quickly most of its energy. Even if it penetrates fully, the small amount of remaining energy limits its lethality beyond the intended target severely.
Deep penetrating JHP rounds are significantly less lethal beyond the intended target than FMJ rounds. How do we know this? People actually test stuff. From More on Overpenetration - What About FMJ's? | Shooting The Bull:



In any case, hitting the target would be the first priority. The reason why officers hit bystanders at all is because they miss the target: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers - CNN.com.



Is this more pertaining to .45 caliber or all fmj's. Reason I ask because I believe military police still use hardball. I know we did when I was in.
 

mappow

New member
Years ago it was explained to me via this forum that ball ammo, especially .45 will keep going through matter verses JHP that will fragment upon initial contact. I have since practiced with ball, but carry JHP. I'd sooner have minimum impact to secondary penetrations then drill through multiple secondary's.
I will say that the background past the BG will determine whether I engage. If threat choice avails itself. It'll be that 10th of a second determination. JUST train real time.
 

bofh

Banned

bofh

Banned
Is this more pertaining to .45 caliber or all fmj's. Reason I ask because I believe military police still use hardball. I know we did when I was in.

Again, two different topics.

FMJ penetration highly depends on caliber and bullet design. Lighter-weight, high-velocity or flat-nosed rounds do jaw/tumble. See the 9mm Makarov vs. 45 ACP comparison at Link Removed.

The military mostly uses hardball due to the Hague Convention, which limits ammunition options.
 

zeke4351

New member
Over penetration is a phrase and concept the FBI has admitted to inventing and using in their report as one of the reasons they needed to get rid of the 10mm. They didn't want to admit that the 10mm was too much for their agents ( CPA's and Lawyers) to handle. The factual records kept by the FBI on the other hand show that 70% of all shots fired in a shooting completely miss the target. Worry about trying to shoot and hit your target with the ammo of your choice. Over penetration is in the same category as flying saucers, everybody talks about it but nobody has ever seen it.


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bofh

Banned
Over penetration is a phrase and concept the FBI has admitted to inventing and using in their report as one of the reasons they needed to get rid of the 10mm. They didn't want to admit that the 10mm was too much for their agents ( CPA's and Lawyers) to handle. The factual records kept by the FBI on the other hand show that 70% of all shots fired in a shooting completely miss the target. Worry about trying to shoot and hit your target with the ammo of your choice. Over penetration is in the same category as flying saucers, everybody talks about it but nobody has ever seen it.

Correct, but always keep in mind that this over penetration nonsense is in relation to JHP rounds. I love the 10mm. I carry the Glock 20 loaded with hardcast rounds while hiking, but also with extra mags loaded with JHP in case of a more serious situation with the 2-legged kind. Terminal ballistics and the intended target define ammunition selection.
 

noylj

New member
Do the following unscientific test on paper targets at the range:
Shoot a 5-shot group with factory FMJ-RN
Shoot a 5-shot group with factory FMJ-FN
Shoot a 5-shot group with factory JHP.
Which one leaves the smallest hole in the target?
That RN can just slip through, doing much less damage than the FN or JHP, even without any expansion.
I don't consider expansion all the important for .45, so I would consider a SWC to be a "good enough" choice--but not a RN.
However, it is your decision.
 

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