For Illinois instructors

[handye9]

Reading the FAQ's on State Police website is quite confusing, and, in more than one area, it leaves credit for prior training, up to discretion of the instructor. Then, in the area of a DD214, it shows no discretion at all.

Examples:

One posted question: Any credit for hunter safety class? The answer was: No, there will be no credit for any hunter safety courses.

Another posted question: What training has been approved for prior training credit? There was a list, first thing on that list was Illinois hunter safety (4 hours credit), then other state CCW's and NRA courses. Nothing was said about prior military.


In another section, it quoted state law as saying "Active duty, reserve, and retired military (with honorable discharge) shall be considered to have completed 8 hours of training.

How can you set up a class when the students require varying amounts of training?

Say, you have 20 people sign up. Five of them have no prior training, five have a CCW from an approved state, five have a DD214, and five have both a DD214 and a CCW.

I would fit in the last group (22 years military and Utah CCW). How much training, should I need?

 

[grizzerr]

The classes will be set up at 16 or 8 hours each in order to fulfill all the requirements with the accepted credits. The first 8 hrs consist of the basic firearms and safety requirements, etc In the second 8 hours the the applicable federal and state firearms and CCW laws are covered and the required qualification are completed. In your case you have 4 hours credit for your UT CCW and 8 hours credit for your military, but the maximum credit allowance is 8 hours. You'll have to attend the 8 hour class.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/98/PDF/098-0063.pdf
http://www.isp.state.il.us/firearms/ccw/CCWPriorTrainingCredit.pdf

 

[thru]

I wouldn't give the military any credit at all, from what I've seen and heard of it. Nobody in the Navy, basically, or the Air Force other than MP's get any firearms training at ALL, and same might as well be true of the other branches, when it comes to handguns.

 

[grizzerr]

I wouldn't give the military any credit at all, from what I've seen and heard of it. Nobody in the Navy, basically, or the Air Force other than MP's get any firearms training at ALL, and same might as well be true of the other branches, when it comes to handguns.

I agree with that, but the law is what it is. I do give discounts to military and veterans who attend my classes in MO though.

 

[thru]

hell, cops get 40-50 hours of training, and they screw up all the time. Both I and many other A class shottists, have screwed up badly under mere match stress, at just the shooting part of things, after HUNDREDS of hours of practice and 10's of thousands of rds, and guys "think" that they will do well in a combat environment, with LESS training? RIGHT. BLUFF, maybe, (and that works, about 90% of the time) but actually being able to "shoot them into the ground", use cover, light, movement, etc, etc. ? HA.

 

[handye9]

I wouldn't give the military any credit at all, from what I've seen and heard of it. Nobody in the Navy, basically, or the Air Force other than MP's get any firearms training at ALL, and same might as well be true of the other branches, when it comes to handguns.

What about Air Force special ops, Navy Seals, combat squadron personnel, combat flight crews, and search and rescue personnel from both services?

What about Navy Corpsmen assigned to Fleet Marine Force and Marine combat units.

You apparently don't know much about either branch of service.

 

[grizzerr]

What about Air Force special ops, Navy Seals, combat squadron personnel, combat flight crews, and search and rescue personnel from both services?

What about Navy Corpsmen assigned to Fleet Marine Force and Marine combat units.

You apparently don't know much about either branch of service.

Those are the minority of the military and yes most of them are trained, but I certainly wouldn't put combat flight crews at near the same level the others are trained to. Of course applicants get credit for taking firearms safety courses also, so go figure.

Reality is that the requiredCCW classes fulfill a statutory requirement, they don't prepare you for the fight.

 

[handye9]

Those are the minority of the military and yes most of them are trained, but I certainly wouldn't put combat flight crews at near the same level the others are trained to. Of course applicants get credit for taking firearms safety courses also, so go figure.

Reality is that the requiredCCW classes fulfill a statutory requirement, they don't prepare you for the fight.

That is true. Nothing would prepare them for the fight. That's not what this thread is about.

It's about the narrow mindedness and confusion caused by the legislators and folks who came up with those statutory requirements.

The blanket statement that "Navy and Airforce should not get any credit, due to lesser amounts of training", is just as narrow minded.

Anybody off the street, with zero experience, can take the 16 hours of training and apply for Illinois CCW. I see nothing wrong with someone who has already had (including Airforce and Navy) much more than 16 hours of similar training, to get credit for it.

 

[grizzerr]

You're right, that's not what the thread is about. I hope you got the info you needed to apply for your IL CCW.
Stay frosty and keep training.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hwbjr]

There is an "official" list on their website that I snagged a copy of as proof in case I ever arises. I've had a boatload of retired military contact me. I agree with handye9 that they will have more experience than many. I have separated out my classes into 8,12, and 16 hour classes and set the curriculum up so each can join as we progress. I do discount to active or retire military as I have many family members who are military and know what they went through.

 

[thru]

I know a LOT more aobut the service than YOU, obviously. There's 1.5 million active military, GUESS how many are REALLY spec ops (as vs lying about it)? 1% would be VERY generous. So the odds are 100 to 1 that I am right and you are wrong.

 

[handye9]

I got an answer from Illinois State Police.

This is a quote from their web site:

Active duty, retired, and members honorably discharged from the armed forces shall be considered to have completed 8 of the 16 hours of reqired training, and applicants who have completed training on the departments list of approved training may receive credit up to 8 hours for prior training. Range qualification and local weapons handling / storage laws, may not be covered by prior training credit.

I spoke to the state police. Their answer was "there is no written maximum credit for prior training". The norm is 8 hours, however, the key words/phrases are "shall" (the 8 hour credit for military is mandatory), "and applicants who have completed training" (there may be additional credit authorized by the instructor), and "may" (the instructor may allow credit for training listed on the approved list).

Simple answer -- Instructor must give 8 hour military credit, if documented by DD-214, and, instructor may give credit for prior training listed on the approved list. No matter how much prior training credit, range qual and instruction of local laws must be completed.

Typical for Illinois. It's all up to interpretation. If I called them tomorrow, I might get a different answer.

 

[handye9]

I know a LOT more aobut the service than YOU, obviously. There's 1.5 million active military, GUESS how many are REALLY spec ops (as vs lying about it)? 1% would be VERY generous. So the odds are 100 to 1 that I am right and you are wrong.

You made this statement " I wouldn't give the military any credit at all, from what I've seen and heard of it. Nobody in the Navy, basically, or the Air Force other than MP's get any firearms training at ALL, and same might as well be true of the other branches, when it comes to handguns."


I used the the spec ops and seals as an example. I never said I was one of them, and I do know about the percentages.

My experience with the Navy is only 21 years 11 months and 2 days of active duty, I went to Navy boot camp in 1974 (small arms training was part of it), transferred to fleet reserve in 1995 and retired in 2004. Off and on, during that time, I did have the opportunity to qualify with rifles and handguns, twenty eight times.

I would agree that the Navy is not what it was ,when I was in, but, none of the other services are either. The law says they get the credit.

During my conversation with the state police, I mentioned some of the responses from this thread. Their response was, "applicants do have the choice of which instructor they would like to sign up with". Hopefully, other applicants who are former Airforce and Navy members, will read this thread, and keep it in mind when selecting the class they would like to attend.

 

[ScottMac]

Well, there is an "official" list of what qualifies for prior training.
It is up to the instructor to verify the credentials, and document them on the course completion certificate (indicating which creds the CCW applicant MUST supply with their application (I.e., DD214, NRA card, safety training cert, etc.).

It is not up to the instructor to decide, it is mandated by the state, and the instructor makes note. The student:applicant for CCW must still supply the credentials, and they must be acceptable to the ISP ... Proper docs as noted on the course completion certificate.
I am an Illinois certified CCW instructor.

Next, I was a Navy Corpsman. In addition to the firearms course in basic, I was Temporarily assigned to the ranges at Cp. LeJeune, where I qualified both rifle(s) and pistol(s). More Navy folks do shooting stuff after Boot than not; I expect it's the same for all branches these days. While not necessarily a part of the specific job, the proximity to firearms, in all branches, makes it a natural recreational activity.

 

[Foxtail]

Florida CCW is ok'd for 4 hours. One of the students used NRA metallic cartridge reload class to qualify for Fl. CCW. Should this qualify for the 4 hours? The class is accepted by Fl. Florida allows any NRA class to be used foe their permit.

 

[grizzerr]

Florida CCW is ok'd for 4 hours. One of the students used NRA metallic cartridge reload class to qualify for Fl. CCW. Should this qualify for the 4 hours? The class is accepted by Fl. Florida allows any NRA class to be used foe their permit.

Doesn't matter if it should qualify or not. The pre-qualifiers are a sick joke. Illinois will accept Florida and Utah CCW for a pre-qualifier even neither actually require any gun handling or shooting, but they will not accept LE training unless the applicant is current LE, who don't even need to have the state CCW.

 

[handye9]

Doesn't matter if it should qualify or not. The pre-qualifiers are a sick joke. Illinois will accept Florida and Utah CCW for a pre-qualifier even neither actually require any gun handling or shooting, but they will not accept LE training unless the applicant is current LE, who don't even need to have the state CCW.

You got that right !!

The powers that be, in Illinois, do not want CCW. That is the reason for excessive amount of classroom time and the high cost. They are busy doing anything and everything to delay and confuse the process. If something makes any kind of sense, they are not going to use it.

As we've seen in this thread, the approved instructors are not all on the same page with prior training credits. Many are saying the maximum prior training credit is eight hours. That maximum number is nowhere in the law. I called ISP and asked them where to find it. The person I spoke to, just said, it was ISP's preference.

I know a person who holds CCW's from Utah, Florida, and Wisconsin. He spent 26 years as an aviation ordanceman, in the Navy. He was in charge of the armory, and taught weapons handling to other sailors. Should he really need eight hours of training to get an Illinois CCW?

Note: The class I attended for Utah CCW, included range qualification. It was the same range qual required for Illinois CCW.

 

[grizzerr]

I'm glad your UT CCW class actually had a qualification since it's not required.

There is confusion in the pre-qualifiers because of the way the law is written.
[QUOTE Section 75. Applicant firearm training (g) The Department and certified firearms instructor shall recognize up to 8 hours of training already completed toward the 16 hour training requirement under this Section if the training course is approved by the Department and recognized under the laws of another state. Any remaining hours that the applicant completes must at least cover the classroom subject matter of paragraph (4) of subsection (b) of this Section, and the range qualification in subsection (c) of this Section.][/QUOTE]

(i) The Department shall accept 8 hours of training as completed toward the 16 hour training requirement under this Section, if the applicant is an active, retired, or honorably
discharged member of the United States Armed Forces.

Some applicants and instructors are looking at this as they can get up to 8 hours for prior training plus their 8 hous credit for military service and that equals 16 hours, so should be a done deal. See bold above. No matter how many hours of credit the applicant is entitled to they still have to attend the section of the class pertaining to state and federal laws and qualify. How many hours is that? It's not specified in the statute but instructors have to have to submit their curriculum to ISP for approval and the application states the law section is a minimum of 4 hours training and firearms handling is 4 hours minimum including the qualification. That's 8 hours and yes the qualified applicant doesn't have to sit through the entire gun handling section, the instructors are doing that 8 hours on the second day of class but its each instructors choice if they do gun handling or laws, so depending on the curriculum a qualified applicant could either come in late or take a long break in the afternoon. I don't know if the IL instructors are going to come up with tuition prices for a 16, 8 and 6 hour classes as well as the 3 hour renewal course.

I know that may be the long answer to your question. The short answer is that IMO it's a responsible decision and requirement that applicants have to qualify and attend the law class.

 

[AlphaKoncepts]

Then you have places like Indiana, Alaska, and Nebraska with no training requirements and the wild west hasn't happened and probably never will. As an instructor I can give you my personal opinion, ALL responsible firearms owners will seek training; but training should never be a mandated requirement to exercise a fundamental right. I would not mind to see the training requirement get dropped down to zero or even 3 hours. 3 hours is the 5 year refresher requirement which discusses changes in the law and re qualification.

In regards to military, I am giving disabled veterans absolutely free classes. I'll even feed them and buy their ammo. All they have to do is show up and shoot, the rest is on me.

 

[handye9]

In regards to military, I am giving disabled veterans absolutely free classes. I'll even feed them and buy their ammo. All they have to do is show up and shoot, the rest is on me.

First off --- A big "THANK YOU" from all the vets who may be able to take you up on that.

Second -- Will you require a specific VA dissability rating ?

VA compensation (monthly check), for service connected dissabilities, starts at ten percent, and goes up to one hundred percent.

VA assigns priority groups that determine different levels of services and copayments. They are partially based on service connected dissability percentages.
Priority group I --- Service connected dissability of 50% or more
Priority group II -- Service connected dissability of 30 to 40%
Priority group III - Includes Medal of Honor recipients, Purple Heart recipients, former POW's, and service connected dissablilty of 10 - 20%.

Here's a link http://www.va.gov/healthbenefits/resources/priority_groups.asp