Florida CWP not nearly secure as Floridian's like to believe....

[NavyLCDR]

Many Florida residents and Florida CWP holders like to brag about how secure their information is claiming that their CWP information is held securely by the Florida Department of Agriculture and not readily available to law enforcement officials especially police officers in other states during traffic stops. Well.... we (kwc and myself) have some bad news for you. We introduce to you NLETS:

Who We Are - Nlets

and guess which state is one of the 12 states (in 2010) that provides Concealed Weapons Permit information to NLETS...go ahead....guess....there is a hint in the title to this thread....

Link Removed

At the bottom of the article:
Nlets supports this transaction in legacy text, as well as XML. Participating states (database holders) include Alaska, Arkansas, Florida, Montana, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia and Wyoming.

To further confirm this, kwc found this:
https://www.ispfsb.com/Public/similarsummary.pdf

A table that shows that Florida is among the current list of states that provide weapons information to NLETS (also including NICS denials). Soooo, officer friendly on the side of the road obtains a person's name and date of birth, easily obtained from any number of sources/database queries, enters the specific query for Concealed Weapons (CWQ) with the person's name and date of birth and state the information is requested from, IE: FL, and gets a CWR (Concealed Weapons Response) which could include:

The CWR response may include any or all of the following data elements:

Name;
Date of birth;
Social Security number;
Permit number, with permit status and holder's height, weight, hair color, eye color;
Not on file;
File not available; and
Temporarily unavailable.

With automated license plate readers, this information could easily be obtained automatically on the registered owner of a vehicle whose license plate has been scanned (think Massachusetts).

It would make absolutely no sense for Florida to participate in the Concealed Weapons database and provide only "File not available"; but if that is what you choose to continue to believe....

 

[kwc]

For those wondering about the origin of the data presented in the ispfsb.com link above, it is a summary of survey responses collected by the Illinois State Police Firearm Services Bureau. Illinois allows applicants of only "substantially similar" states to apply for an IL CCL. Reporting of permit/license holders to NLETS is one of the criteria.

About half of the states in the nation participate in NLETS reporting.

 

[pacecars]

As someone who uses FCIC/NCIC daily the only way to run a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit is by the permit number or social security number. You cannot run it by name.

 

[pacecars]

And I am in Florida

 

[NavyLCDR]

And I am in Florida

Then you need to notify the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services as well as the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, because they say differently.

March 23, 2015:
Good afternoon, Mr. H:

I want to begin my reply to your e-mail by citing a particular section of the law that obligates the Division of Licensing to provide information about concealed weapon license holders to law enforcement agencies online. Let me direct your attention to section 790.06(7), Florida Statutes, which reads as follows:

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall maintain an automated listing of license-holders and pertinent information, and such information shall be available online, upon request, at all times to all law enforcement agencies through the Florida Crime Information Center.

In order to meet the requirements of this section of law, every night the division provides a copy of the license file containing all concealed weapon license records to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE). The status of each license (issued, suspended, revoked, expired, etc.) is included in the file.

The FDLE makes this licensing information available to law enforcement agencies throughout Florida and the United States. It is my understanding that this information is readily available to Florida law enforcement agencies via NCIC/FCIC. Out-of-state law enforcement agencies needing to obtain the status of a Florida concealed weapon license must contact the FDLE via telephone. The response is then returned to the agency making the query via the NCIC system or NLETS. A representative from FDLE has informed me that the law enforcement officer making the initial inquiry must provide at least one of three search criteria: name and DOB, SSN, or license #. The response to the inquiry will confirm the existence of a license and the license status if one exists.

(As an aside, I would like to point out that making concealed weapon licensing information available through law enforcement networks is an essential part of the reciprocity agreements that we have with some states. Some states – Virginia and West Virginia, for example – require that this information be available around the clock as a basic condition of the reciprocal agreement.)

I hope this provide you with the information you are seeking. If I can be of further service, please get back in touch with me at your convenience.

Ken Wilkinson
Assistant Director
Division of Licensing
Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
(850) 245-5500
(850) 245-5505 Fax
[email protected]
4040 Esplanade Way
1st Floor, Suite 135
Tallahassee, Florida 32399

www.FreshFromFlorida.com

Please note that Florida has a broad public records law (Chapter 119, Florida Statutes). Most written communications to or from state employees are public records obtainable by the public upon request. Emails sent to me at this email address may be considered public and will only be withheld from disclosure if deemed confidential pursuant to the laws of the state of Florida.

 

[apvbguy]

navy guy just has this pedantic need to prove he knows more than anyone else, I like others have stated that the cop on the street doing a routine traffic stop DOES NOT have direct access to the FLA DOACS CWFL data base, in other words when you get pulled over for a suspected violation and the cop runs your plates the fact that you have a CWFL is not part of that look up, if he runs your drivers license the fact that you have a cwfl is not part of that look up, if he wants to learn if someone has a CWFL he needs to make a separate request to access the DOACs database of CWFL holders.
everything he posted in this thread is correct but in the context of the original thread that caused his reaching out for this info he is still not correct, while law enforcement across the country CAN gain access to the database it is not part of any info derived from any normal or common motor vehicle records check.

 

[pacecars]

I just checked when I got to work to make sure but there are only 2 fields that are searchable for running a Florida concealed weapons permit and they are the social security number and the actual concealed weapons permit number. there is no way to run it by name and DOB. It does meet the criteria you listed above by including the SSN.

 

[apvbguy]

the database can be accessed by law enforcement by actually calling into the DOACS, it is not readily available via DMV records as the navy guy is trying to imply

 

[pacecars]

To be honest I always thought it was stupid that you can't run it by name and dob

 

[NavyLCDR]

the database can be accessed by law enforcement by actually calling into the DOACS, it is not readily available via DMV records as the navy guy is trying to imply

What I said was... now try to follow this, I'll present it step by step....

1. A vehicle's Florida license plate number is obtained.
2. DMV records are queried returning the name and date of birth of the registered owner. How long does this take? 1 or 2 minutes?
3. The name and date of birth of the registered owner is provided to the State of Florida as a CWFL query, who through whatever process, returns the CWFL status. This information is available 24hrs/day, 7 days/week.
4. Provided with only the Florida license plate number to begin with, the Florida CWFL status of the registered owner is obtained.

or as exactly happened to John Fillipidis stopped in Maryland for speeding -:

1. The driver provides the officer (in another state) with a Florida driver's license.
2. The officer obtains the driver's name and date of birth from the driver's license and provides that information to Florida in a CWFL query.
3. The state of Florida, through whatever means, uses that information to return the status of a Florida CWFL.

Previous statements made by apvguy that Florida CWFL information is securely kept within the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is false, as stated by Ken Wilkinson, the Assistant Director of Licensing at FDA&CS. What are apvguy's credentials? In addition, not only does FDA&CS provide the entire CWFL database to the Flordia Department of Law Enforcement, Mr. Wilkinson has also stated that the CWFL information must be available to other states' law enforcement agencies on a 24/7 basis in order to meet reciprocity requirements.

If you want to continue to believe that if you hand your Florida driver's license to a cop in another state that there is no way for them to obtain your Florida CWFL information from that driver's license, go right ahead. The State of Florida says otherwise. And there are indications - though not admitted to by the state of Florida - that a concealed weapons query made electronically in NLETS provides a return.

In regards to pacecars claim that a social security number or permit number is required - that might be true for the methods he uses to get CWFL information, but it is not true that is all that is required to get Florida CWFL information from other sources or using other queries.

apvguy is just butt hurt because he was wrong about Florida CWFL information remaining securely locked up inside the confines Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. One can either get over the butt hurt and learn from factual information provided, with sources....or just stay butt hurt and continue to whine.

 

[pacecars]

No dog in this fight but I have dealt with Ag and Consumer Services and they don't have an after hours dispatch or contact number to get the info from and would not give the info out over the phone anyway. They would request a message be sent via teletype . Everything is automated through FDLE (FCIC) and available through NLETS and can not be run by name.

 

[pacecars]

The info is available to any law enforcement agency but can't be obtained just by running a tag

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

The info is available to any law enforcement agency but can't be obtained just by running a tag

Are you familiar with the term "data mining"? It's where a computer system gathers bits of information, an address here, a name there, a date of birth from over there.....


Maryland Transportation Authority Police (MDTA) which isn't even located in Florida has the answer to why no one needed to call anyone in Florida..

Maryland State has a network of technical security databases which access the databases of all other states who comply and coordinate with them. For states who do not willfully comply, or those who are not set up to align technically, Maryland mines data from various LEO systems.

Maryland has a rather innocuous sounding name for the intelligence hub which contains this data, it’s called Maryland Coordination and Analysis Center.

The intelligence analysis hub has access to, and contains, Florida’s CCW list (among other identification systems) and mines the state’s database systems for vehicle plate numbers of the holders. These license plate numbers are then stored in a cross referencing database within the Maryland Coordination and Analysis Center.

The database is directly connected to another Maryland technological system. ALPR (Automatic License Plate Reader) system is a tracking system synergized with the MCAC Hub. -Conservative Tree House.com

One of those ALPR's made a hit on Mr Filippidis' SUV plate as he exited Fort McHenry Tunnel into Maryland. That plate was linked to a license to carry issued by the state of Florida. A flag was issued on the plate and a Maryland Transportation Authority Police officer followed Mr Filippdis for approximately 10 miles hoping to find a violation worthy of pulling the SUV over. (I would submit that if you have to follow someone for 10 miles hoping to find a violation that you had no reasonable suspicion of any illegal activity but are instead just fishing for a reason.) In due course, Mr Filipddis was pulled over and one of the first questions the MDTA officer asked was, "Where's the gun?"

How, pray tell, did a transportation officer Nine Hundred Miles from Mr Filippdis' hometown of Hudson, FLA, come to find out that Mr Filipddis had a Florida license to carry a firearm?

Not a single call to anyone in Florida needs to be made.

 

[NavyLCDR]

No dog in this fight but I have dealt with Ag and Consumer Services and they don't have an after hours dispatch or contact number to get the info from

and you would probably be correct. However the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services has stated that they provide the database to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement which does have after hours dispatch and a contact number to get the information from. The Florida CWFL information is available from at least two sources - the Dept of Ag, and the Dept of Law Enforcement.

Virginia, for example, has a written reciprocity agreement with Florida. Part of the requirements of that reciprocity is:
LIS > Code of Virginia > 18.2-308.014

§ 18.2-308.014. Reciprocity.

A. A valid concealed handgun or concealed weapon permit or license issued by another state shall authorize the holder of such permit or license who is at least 21 years of age to carry a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth, provided (i) the issuing authority provides the means for instantaneous verification of the validity of all such permits or licenses issued within that state, accessible 24 hours a day, and (ii) except for the age of the permit or license holder and the type of weapon authorized to be carried, the requirements and qualifications of that state's law are adequate to prevent possession of a permit or license by persons who would be denied a permit in the Commonwealth under this article. The Superintendent of State Police shall (a) in consultation with the Office of the Attorney General determine whether states meet the requirements and qualifications of this subsection, (b) maintain a registry of such states on the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN), and (c) make the registry available to law-enforcement officers for investigative purposes. The Superintendent of the State Police, in consultation with the Attorney General, may also enter into agreements for reciprocal recognition with any state qualifying for recognition under this subsection.

Notice what I highlighted. That's the information that Florida provides to Virginia - at a minimum. Information from the Illinois State Patrol (and other sources) indicates that the Florida CWFL information is available via the standard NLETS CW (Concealed Weapons) query.

One of those ALPR's made a hit on Mr Filippidis' SUV plate as he exited Fort McHenry Tunnel into Maryland. That plate was linked to a license to carry issued by the state of Florida. A flag was issued on the plate and a Maryland Transportation Authority Police officer followed Mr Filippdis for approximately 10 miles hoping to find a violation worthy of pulling the SUV over. (I would submit that if you have to follow someone for 10 miles hoping to find a violation that you had no reasonable suspicion of any illegal activity but are instead just fishing for a reason.) In due course, Mr Filipddis was pulled over and one of the first questions the MDTA officer asked was, "Where's the gun?"

I fully believe there is a middle step in there. After the license plate number or driver's license is run, the name and date of birth of the registered owner or driver's license is returned, which then is used to obtain Florida CWFL information - instantaneously and 24 hrs/day. However, it would be incredibly easy for a computer to scan the license plate, run the license plate number in a query, obtain the name and DOB information from the query and generate the second query asking for CWFL information. All within a matter of minutes and the only remaining question is if Florida requires a human contact. Information sources outside the state of Florida indicate only NLETS queries are required.

 

[pacecars]

It is available 24 hours a day via TTY. They will not tell you over the phone because they have no way of knowing who you are. I did check one more thing and when you run a Florida driver license it does have the SSN listed on the response. So I stand semi corrected but you still have to run the CWP by SSN or permit mumber. I also called FDLE and asked if there was any other way to obtaing the vaildity of a permit and those are the only 2 methods. So a tag reader could run a tag and then you could run th registered owner and the run the oqnwer's SSN to check for a permit.

 

[pacecars]

The Ag database, Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles and several other databases are accessed solely through FDLE vis FCIC

 

[NavyLCDR]

It is available 24 hours a day via TTY. They will not tell you over the phone because they have no way of knowing who you are. I did check one more thing and when you run a Florida driver license it does have the SSN listed on the response. So I stand semi corrected but you still have to run the CWP by SSN or permit mumber. I also called FDLE and asked if there was any other way to obtaing the vaildity of a permit and those are the only 2 methods. So a tag reader could run a tag and then you could run th registered owner and the run the oqnwer's SSN to check for a permit.

and we have a winner. Contrary to what apvguy likes to say, I never claimed that CWFL information was tied directly to any motor vehicle information. But the process you described could be automated by computer to occur in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

Computers can do amazing things, they don't have to have a 'reason' to run a SSN, they can run one SSN after another once it's been obtained, 24hours a day 7 days a week. The results are stored in a database which takes up virtually no room at all and has almost 0 maintenance costs.

Virginia, for example, has a written reciprocity agreement with Florida. Part of the requirements of that reciprocity is:
LIS > Code of Virginia > 18.2-308.014

Well, that certainly explains why Georgia has no reciprocity with VA; licenses are issued at a county level instead of state. There is no 'central repository' and in fact it's specifically prohibited to have one, no law that says the address has to be updated after moving and with one hundred fifty-nine county probate courts anyone wishing to inquire about any Georgian's license had better have a great deal of patience.