Flip 'Em The Bird And Die Like A Viking

[Treo]

Flip 'Em The Bird And Die Like A Viking

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Link Removed

I occasionally get taken to task over my sig line, usually by someone who doesn’t understand it or thinks it's a “random tough guy quote” or that I’m looking to piss off road ragers.

It actually came from the above article it was also the last post I ever made on the OLD THR (ironic huh?)

Anyway the linked article here is where the line came from. I don’t want to get too much into it because the author (Gabe Suarez) is far more articulate than I am. I’ll just say that in my mind there is absolutely no good reason for me to comply w/ the commands of the felon. In the scenario posited in the article, win lose or draw my wallet never would have come out of my pocket because I would have gone straight for my gun. (I’m not trying to be a bad ass I know me).

So, here’s the article give it some thought.

FWIW here's the .org thread Link Removed
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[FloridaBlue]

Second link is showing 404 btw.

 

[B2Tall]

Interesting reading but the excercise has one massive flaw - it assumes that armed robbers always shoot their victims. This is about as far from the truth as it gets.

I brought this up in a previous thread a while back - according to official FBI stats, their latest figures (from a couple of years ago) listed approx 400,000 robberies involving a gun. 2000 people were murdered in these robberies. That's one-half of one percent. In 99.5% of the armed robberies, nobody was killed. (Note: on one hand the figures don't include victims who were injured but not killed. On the other hand there were undoubtedly more than one victim in some of these robberies, making the total number of victims more than 400,000. In any case the vast majority of armed robbery victims walked away unscathed).

The excercise has the BGs with weapons drawn and "having the drop" on the victim. As shown, trying to open fire on the BGs in this situation is nearly suicidal. Instead of that 1/2 of 1% chance of being killed, it's now been bumped up to nearly 100%. They left out another option - carefully and calmly complying with the demands of the robbers and in all probability walking away. I know that's not the badass, internet Rambo macho-man response that a handful on these boards would come up with but it's a helluva lot better than "dying like a Viking", or "dying on a pile of warm brass", yada yada yada.

I'm only going to open fire if I feel I have a distinct advantage in terms of suprise or if my assailant has already started firing. In that case I have nothing to lose, otherwise I'll go with the 99.5% chance of survival by handing over my wallet or valuables. And don't think that just because you've put a couple of slugs into the BG that the threat is over. I recently read a law enforcement magazine where a number of actual occurences were analyzed. In several of these instances the BG was mortally wounded but still had enough gas in the tank to return fire and kill or wound the LEOs on the other end of the encounter.

 

[Treo]

The excercise has the BGs with weapons drawn and "having the drop" on the victim. As shown, trying to open fire on the BGs in this situation is nearly suicidal. Instead of that 1/2 of 1% chance of being killed, it's now been bumped up to nearly 100%. They left out another option - carefully and calmly complying with the demands of the robbers and in all probability walking away. I know that's not the badass, internet Rambo macho-man response that a handful on these boards would come up with but it's a helluva lot better than "dying like a Viking", or "dying on a pile of warm brass", yada yada yada.

Did you catch the part of the article where it says the scenario was taken from real life? Also that the victim did comply and was murdered for his trouble?

 

[B2Tall]

Did you catch the part of the article where it says the scenario was taken from real life? Also that the victim did comply and was murdered for his trouble?

Yeah.

Did it occur to you that the victim was an unfortunate part of the 1/2 of 1%?? I didn't say that nobody gets killed. I only pointed out that very few people actually get killed in armed robberies considering how many there are. Is this the point in time where you tell me that the FBI stats are meaningless (or skewed, or bogus, etc.)???

 

[Treo]

Yeah. Is this the point in time where you tell me that the FBI stats are meaningless (or skewed, or bogus, etc.)???

No, this is the point where I tell you I'm going to fight period . I've been shot, I know what it feels like, it's not some big mystery. I'm not going to trust the good intentions of a bad guy w/ a gun I'm going to fight

 

[FN1910]

Interesting reading but the excercise has one massive flaw - it assumes that armed robbers always shoot their victims. This is about as far from the truth as it gets.

(At this point, the man Chip knew was shot dead.)

You are correct about the stats but in this exercise one victim was already dead so it could be assumed that they would not fit into the normal stats. Since they had already killed one person then I would expect that they would have no problems in killing a second person and probably would. Now it is an interesting scenario, although probably very rare, but does demonstrate what could happen. Unlike Indiana Jones pulling his gun out when faced with a no win situation you don't have that option here.

There are times such as the one in CT I believe where the two men killed the family and made the Mother drive to the ATM machine or something like that where you know that being killed is an distinct possibility and highly probable. The people on the highjacked planes on 9/11 were in such a mode. When all other options are considered and none seem to have much of a chance then I agree with the last option. Flip 'Em The Bird And Die Like A Viking. This makes me think of all the people that sit around and cry "If only someone had been carrying a gun they would not have had to sit there like sheeo and be executed". In the Viking lore they never died just sitting there crying about what they didn't have but made the best of what they did have. They went out fighting with anything and everything. That is what the line is all about. You don't give up because it is a no win situation but do your best with what you have. You may die but you at least die trying and may just get lucky.

 

[nogods]

Why would anyone waste time on meaningless hand gestures before drawing a weapon? Are the Bad guys going to be haunted by the Hollywood antics after they murder the victim?

 

[Treo]

So whip out your CCW Badge and blast away. :sarcastic:

Nope just yell "Stop! I'm armed" then skin that smoke wagon and get to work :biggrin:

 

[B2Tall]

No, this is the point where I tell you I'm going to fight period . I've been shot, I know what it feels like, it's not some big mystery. I'm not going to trust the good intentions of a bad guy w/ a gun I'm going to fight

You're going to fight.....and probably die. If that's what you want then go right ahead. I respect your right to do so. It's also your right to assume that the BGs always shoot the people they're robbing, but that's like thinking that because one person dies in a car accident that all car accidents are 100% fatal to those involved.

If a BG wants you dead it's highly unlikely that he's going to bother asking you for your wallet or cash. He's just going to shoot you outright and take what he wants. The "No-Win" scenario that was presented was the exception and not like the vast majority of the armed robberies that occur. 400,000 robberies minus 2000 deaths = 398,000 robberies where nobody was killed. I like those odds and would only pull my pistol if I thought I had a distinct advantage.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

It's reading threads like this that make me want to dust off my Level II underwear, insert the trauma plate, and start wearing it daily. :wink:

There is the concept of "social duty" to resist crime for the benefit of one's society (for the young among us, the Guru was named John Dean (Jeff) Cooper, and he believed in Duty to Society).

There's also the truth: You will be playing it by ear, using your street sense, reading body language, watching for signs. And you'll use any distraction you can, feigned compliance, tossing a watch and/or wallet, making your move when you feel you have that half second of inattention working for you. Much will depend on how many lives besides your own are threatened. If you know your wife/child is on the line if you don't stop the goblins, you know you have no choice but to stop them before you die.

 

[Anubis]

I'm with Treo.

Someone threatening me with a weapon could result in an infinite number of possible results, some of which are:
(a) he chuckles and says he's only kidding,
(b) he takes your wallet, keys, wife, whatever, and leaves you alive as promised,
(c) he kills you.

If you want to bet your life on options other than c, feel free to do so; maybe the robber is not such a bad fellow, just misunderstood.

I hope for the best and plan for the worst, so I will assume someone threatening lethal violence is going to execute same, and react appropriately. I won't be listening to whatever his demands are, because they are irrelevant. I wouldn't bother being armed if my plan were to comply with threats. Like they say in New Hampshire...

 

[tcox4freedom]

I'm definitely with Treo and Anubis!

I've been there and done that has well. I act on the assumption that the BG is there to do me harm; and I'll act accordingly.

I damn sure NOT going sit there like some yellow belly coward and just let the BG stand there and threaten me or my loved ones.

I hope if I ever find myself in a L&D situation again where the people around me will cower in fright and wet themselves. (If I'm lucky there will be people like Treo and Anubis around around to have my back.)

 

[Treo]

There's also the truth: You will be playing it by ear, using your street sense, reading body language, watching for signs. And you'll use any distraction you can, feigned compliance, tossing a watch and/or wallet, making your move when you feel you have that half second of inattention working for you.

Exactly :biggrin:

 

[Deanimator]

Interesting reading but the excercise has one massive flaw - it assumes that armed robbers always shoot their victims. This is about as far from the truth as it gets.

I assume that somebody who puts me in reasonable, immediate fear of life and limb means it. My solution is to shoot them.

If you don't want to get shot, you shouldn't do that.

 

[tcox4freedom]

I assume that somebody who puts me in reasonable, immediate fear of life and limb means it. My solution is to shoot them.

If you don't want to get shot, you shouldn't do that.

My sentiments exactly!

 

[B2Tall]

YouTube - Gun Control works "Thank God for Guns" and Gun Control.

Exactly :biggrin:

It's so hard to take you seriously when you post clips of a scripted TV show as some sort of proof to bolster your point of view. Are you aware that these people were actors who were following a script?? I mean really....why don't you just tell us all to watch the movie "Commando" so we can se how it's done.

Like I said before, ask any real combat vet and they'll tell you that more often than not it's the tough-talking Rambo wannabes that usually end up soiling their pants and crying for mommy once the stuff hits the fan. Oh, and before any of you keyboard badasses out there start to tell the rest of us how many firefights you've been in and how many times you've been wounded and how many BGs you've mowed down......don't. This is the internet and I'm not going to believe a word of your entirely predictable, self-serving, macho-man drivel. Take that crap somewhere it might be believed - like a teen chat room on AOL.

 

[B2Tall]

I assume that somebody who puts me in reasonable, immediate fear of life and limb means it. My solution is to shoot them.

Feel free to assume whatever you want. I'm going to assume that if they wanted to shoot me, they'd just do it outright and not bother with the demands. According to the FBI stats I'd be correct about 99%+ of the time and I'd be on my way home.....a little light in the wallet maybe, but in one peice.

 

[Treo]

It's so hard to take you seriously when you post clips of a scripted TV show as some sort of proof to bolster your point of view. Are you aware that these people were actors who were following a script?? I mean really....why don't you just tell us all to watch the movie "Commando" so we can se how it's done.

Like I said before, ask any real combat vet and they'll tell you that more often than not it's the tough-talking Rambo wannabes that usually end up soiling their pants and crying for mommy once the stuff hits the fan. Oh, and before any of you keyboard badasses out there start to tell the rest of us how many firefights you've been in and how many times you've been wounded and how many BGs you've mowed down......don't. This is the internet and I'm not going to believe a word of your entirely predictable, self-serving, macho-man drivel. Take that crap somewhere it might be believed - like a teen chat room on AOL.

I am a real combat Vet 3/11 FA attached to the 18th Airborne Corps during the liberation of Kuwait

 

[BC1]

Why would anyone waste time on meaningless hand gestures before drawing a weapon? Are the Bad guys going to be haunted by the Hollywood antics after they murder the victim?

True. We teach the three S's of self defense... Stealth, Surprise and Skill. There's no warning. Once deadly force is required your goblin is surprised because he didn't know you carried the gun and then your skill takes over. Although many people "open carry" I'm not a fan of it because it removes the stealth/surprise.

As an instructor I can't teach a student what the threat will do, how he will approach, etc. It's usually a lightening fast encounter. One doesn't want to be caught behind the reactionary curve. I can only instill a skillset in the student. The rest is up to him.