First post

[Bucky9mm]

Hi everyone. Recently there was incident at a McDonald's where two black girls attacked a transgendered person. One of the employees of McDonald's got his phone and recorded the beating the person took. I saw the video and was suprised that no one jumped in to assist this person. I know I would have.

I've legally owned guns for the last five years and have spent many hours at the range. I would call myself both knowledgable and proficient with a firearm. I have recently received my Utah carry permit. I'm soon leaving on a trip out of state and will be carrying for the first time. Since I got my permit I've been wondering how I should react if I ever found myself in a situtation like what happened at that McDonalds. I know that I'd jump right in and try to break it up. If that failed, then and only then I would draw my weapon. Assuming the sight of my gun doesn't stop them and the attack continues what should one do at that point? If they came at me I would not hesitate to shoot to kill. But lets say they just keep beating up this poor person. Should I yell "FREEZE" then fire a warning shot into the air if they don't respond? Shoot a knee cap? Aim and fire at the torso?

I understand there are a lot of legal questions here as well that may or may not impact the responses to this. But looking at it from just the standpoint of an "Oh my God, this person is getting the s&*t kicked out of them and I need to do something now" standpoint, how should one in my position react?

I'm currently looking around for additional firearms classes and training but in the mean time, I figure I'd ask and see what, if anything you can suggest for me here.

 

[Invisiblefiend]

Never firing a warning shot you can actually end up hurting somebody else only pull your weapon when you are ready to protect yourself or anybody else with deadly force. As far as legalities it would depend on the local jurisdiction as to what you can and can't do shooting put a knee cap is not only do you have to be Johnny on the spot with that shot at a moving target your opening yourself to alot of legal problems they can actually sue you for that even if they were committing a crime. Only the use of deadly force is what should be used to protect a life of somebody innocent.

 

[HueMan]

Based on my understanding of what you have said I would suggest you have a very good attorney if your actions are based on what you have said...and don't go into any Micky D's.

If you took a CC class re-read the section on disparity of force...I'm just sayin.

Better yet leave the gun at home. Mall Ninjas like you and this kind of foolish question asking gives the rest of us "Law abiding" CC'ers a bad name.

 

[vyking]

I belive you would be neck deep in trouble.

If you used deadly force in the scenario you described. A person that you do not know simply getting the $h!t beat out of them is not justified used of that kind of force. If you and other witnesses could say that you felt that person was in danger of loss of life then you might be ok. If this were a family member or loved one then you would most likely be in the clear. But that depends on local laws and your DA.

 

[localgirl]

I watched that video a few days ago and felt nauseous. I had not heard that was a transgendered pseron, but in any case, it was a small person, being beat nearly to death by two larger and incredibly violent people.

I believe in that situation the person being attacked would have been justified in using deadly force. They beat her into a seizure, and didn't just attack once, but multiple times, and attempted to drag the victim from the restaurant by her hair, presumably to finish the job outside.

However, anyone could have tried to intervene. In fact, an older woman did try to talk to the attackers. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the attack, but I imagine that if I had been there I would have first tried stepping in. But if I had been on the ground, it would have been a different story. Scary stuff.

 

[bob16066]

I don't think you want to jump right in. That would be grossly irresponsible.

How are you gonna feel if you wrestle with these delinquents and they grab your pistol and shoot someone? Happens all the time to Cops. And they're trained and experienced.

Think it through. You're not helping anyone by getting them and or yourself shot!

Plus: you don't know if the attackers are Packin Heat. Start wrestling with one and the other shoots you. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

First dial 911.

(Me: I'd say there's a Robbery in Progress and the victim is trying fight back. But that's just me. You might think that's a lie but I'd swear when the law arrived that that's what I though I saw. After all I didn't see the whole thing. I could be wrong. Cops tend to think everything is a robbery or drug deal gone wrong anyway).

After you dail 911:

Then ask the dispatcher what you should do.

Then: if you feel you must do something (after he tells you not to do anything but stay on the line if you can):

Move to a good defensive position (preferably one with a choke point) and announce: "I just called 911. You can stay and get arrested or run away now."

Hopefully they'll run away and you saved someone without being stupid and getting someone shot.

If they then attack you: you may have to draw or even shoot.

But it never looks good if you have to shoot someone who's unarmed.

I don't recommend doing that. I'd prefer to go outside to flag down the cops as they arrive and point them in the right direction.

Think it through: how are you gonna feel if your bullet kills or injures an innocent bystander? After all that's a more likely outcome than you

1. Saving the day by wrestling or shooting two delinquents who may or may not be armed.
2. Not getting any innocent people shot including yourself.
3. Not getting arrested yourself

Think it through!

Whatever can go wrong will.

Jumping into the fray only works on TV because they have a script and if it doesn't work they refilm it.

Just because your carrying a hammer don't look at every problem as a nail.

 

[50SR9]

Tough call. But one thing a lot of criminals count on, imo, is that no one will interject themselves. Problem is the criminals have too many rights and we as citizens trying to protect ourselves and others from these scum sucking *&%^(#@#A)$*, get the short end of the stick way too often. Sitting here imagining myself in the same situation. Yep, tough call. But to me, living with my conscience and not helping the victim would be against my nature. Has nothing to do with the gun, has everything to do with helping your fellow man. The gun is just a legal point of confusion and conflict. Maybe if all of the law abiding citizens would take a stand, take some lumps in the process, we could get the criminal side of this country on the defensive instead of the offensive. Everyone has their opinion, this be mine.

 

[Bucky9mm]

Good answers all but bob16066, I think you hit the nail on the head. Everything you say to do, IMO is exactly what I should do. I was just having a hard time getting past the obvious knee jerk reactions. Thanks again.

 

[50SR9]

a p.s. to my reply above.....everything and anything after dialing 911 of course!

 

[FloridaBlue]

Draw your weapon and flash your CCW badge.

On a serious note dial 911. I may try and help but there is no way I would draw my weapon unless they presented a weapon first. I'm not familiar with Utah laws so I'm not sure what kind of trouble you would end up in but if your going to react the way you describe I'd keep an attorney on a retainer.

 

[Profisher777]

Not that I'm experienced or anything, but shooting to wound is also a very bad idea. If you shoot somebody only to wound them, your probably firing your weapon for the wrong reason anyway. Secondly, if you shoot to wound, The still ALIVE bg can sue you, lie to the police, or still kill you. I would not get involved in a situation like that because you would be more of a reliability than anything.... Be smart when you carry, thats my plan

 

[jg1967]

Assuming that you are serious ... call 911 first. If you watch a video like this it comes with a nice summary on who provoked and attacked whom. Reality does not, you just walk up to a fight and you can't assume you know how it started. If you end up defending the attacker you are in trouble.

 

[kelcarry]

In SC and probably other states we have the Alter Ego rule which allows someone to intervene in a situation where someone is being attacked and your presumption is that if it were you, you were in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury; your actions would also provide you with an immunity to civil or criminal liability. Having said that, a big altercation or mob scene fracas is something that you cannot be sure of who or what is really going on---it may be obvious that someone is being beaten senseless but even then making a decision, particularly where your firearm could be in play, gets to be a difficult scenario. Alter Ego sounds good on paper and in the Code but in real life, unless it is you or your family, it gets very "iffy". Calling 911 first is the obvious. After that, it is very hard to say what someone should do. I tend to think that I will "know it when I see it" and act accordingly.