First "negative" encounter while OC'ing

[Firefighterchen]

First "negative" encounter with civilian while OC'ing

The following story wasn't a big deal, but I feel it was my first negative encounter while I was open carrying (by the end of the night, I just kind of laughed it off), and I have a question for the Texans that roam this forum. So to the beginning.

I was in Best Buy, picking up my 3rd EVO 3D (same problem over and over). I am wearing blue jeans and my college paramedic tshirt, I have my maxpedition bag slung to my left, my firearm in a fobus paddlehoster on my right. I am standing in the customer service line being helped by a best buy employee (BBE), to the right of me is another customer who was troubleshooting a netbook with a geek squad guy (GSG). The customer, wearing gym clothes, makes a gesture towards me and attempts to get the GSG to look at me. I turned and made eye contact with the customer, and the following conversation took place:

(To me, the customer seemed to have a very conceded tone, I attempted to be as humble as I could)

Customer: Are you a policeman?

Me: Hi, no I am not.

Customer: (pointing to me talking to GSG) I feel like I am in the wild wild west right now, first its the guy with a parrot on his shoulder, now a guy with a gun!

BBE: What guy with a parrot?

Me: Hah, I have seen that guy around town.

GSG: Yea, has bird **** all down his back...

(everyone laughs)

Customer: (turns towards me, sounds a little agitated) Hey, so why do you carry a firearm?

Me: Oh, I am a paramedic (hoping to ease the customer), and I carry because there are a lot of bad people in this wor...

Customer: (Interrupts) Oh, well that is close enough to an officer, but I mean why do you carry it open?

Me: Ah, there are a lot of reasons, but mainly I carry openly for deterrence. Almost all my patients of domestic violence or violent assault always say the same thing, "I never thought it would happen to me," I am taking action to not be a victim. Didn't you hear about the guy at the Chevron a couple weeks ago? He got shot in the face for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Customer: Have you heard of IWB holsters?

Me: Yea, actually I make my own holsters, this is not one I made (points at holster)...

Customer: (Interrupts again) Could you not get a permit? Is that why you don't conceal it?

Me: In Washington I don't need a permit to open carry, but I have one so I can carry in my car, without it i would have to unload it.

BBE: I am getting my permit soon!

Me: Nice, that's good

Customer: (looks me up and down) You are not a big guy, a group of thugs could easily jump you. Aren't you afraid they will take your gun, put it to the back of your head, and pull the trigger?

Me: (alert from that last comment) No, there has only been 2 incidents nationally that could be considered an open carrier being targeted.

Customer: Back where I come from, thugs jumped a guy they thought was an policeman, shot him with his own gun.

Me: (immediately thinking he lived in a bad part of CA, IL, NYC, etc) Hm, I would have to research that case, because to my knowledge that would be the 3rd time it has happened...where did you use to live?

Customer: Texas.

Me: Oh...that is interesting, considering Texas doesn't allow open carry.

BBE: We need to go to the phone area to reactivate the phone.

Me: All right. (turns towards customer) Have a nice day.

(Walking to phone area)

BBE: Do you get a lot of people treating you like that?

Me: No, I get people that ask questions, but no one has been that hostile.

BBE: Yea I can see that, well have a good day.

(transfers me to phone employee, having multiple managers come and talk with the employees, no one else mentioned my firearm).




So...in conclusion. The guy had no intention of listening to my anwers. Apparently pirates (the guy with a parrot) are from the wild wild west. Apparently I (5'10" 180lbs muscular athletic) am a small guy. Apparently thugs in Texas are killing open carriers for looking like LEO's. I kept my eye on that customer until he left the store, after his comment about taking my gun and pulling the trigger, I did not feel right about this guy. His conceded tone and attitude is what makes me feel like it was a negative encounter (and I am sorry I could not get that feeling across over a post). I am glad Best Buy held a positive opinion towards firearms, and no one from the store made me feel unwanted.

My question to the Texans of this forum, I do not know which city he was from, but is there anywhere in Texas where LEO/people that look like LEO's are being killed frequently?

To the other OC'ers, did I handle the situation appropriately?

 

[Glock Fan]

You did ok. The guy didn't call the cops and nobody got huffy. I've had folks give me grief about my OC and have several ways of handling it depending on where I am and the way the encounter goes. Best thing to do is keep your cool, stand your ground and have facts to back up OC (like you did with your stats about only 2 people being targeted due to OC).

 

[Caribou]

Good job! You kept your cool and had answers for his remarks. I CC but I feel that we all provide a deterrent. Whether it is the CC'er or the guy on the street that confronts a BG it slows other BG's down and possibly eliminates one completely. The OC'er might very well dissuade the immediate action of a BG. In any case we all benefit. One thing that the OC accomplishes is the familiarization of guns with the general public. Your speaking pleasantly and intelligently served us all well, thank you.

 

[radartech]

Good job! You kept your cool and had answers for his remarks. I CC but I feel that we all provide a deterrent. Whether it is the CC'er or the guy on the street that confronts a BG it slows other BG's down and possibly eliminates one completely. The OC'er might very well dissuade the immediate action of a BG. In any case we all benefit. One thing that the OC accomplishes is the familiarization of guns with the general public. Your speaking pleasantly and intelligently served us all well, thank you.

Well said!!!
Glad it worked out well!!

 

[creatism]

I think you handled it well.
As I live in Texas I can say that if you are OCing the least of your issues will be "thugs thinking your a cop". And I'm almost positive no ccw (chl here in Texas) has been targeted because they think he's a cop. Now I'm not sure on the statistics of "thug attempts robbery, ccw draws and points, thug wrestles gun from ccw, thug shoots ccw for their trouble." I'm also pretty sure the rate of leo (off duty and on duty) murder or "offing" is no greater then anywhere else. I live in dfw area and work in Dallas (as a paramedic for a private service dfd handles the 911) we usually post at one of the hospitals in a bad part of town, and at least once a week you see the fd come in followed by 3-5 squad cars. Don't know if that qualifies as a large number or not. But I also don't how many of those fallen officers pass away vs treat and released.
Again congrats on keeping your cool!

 

[brich42]

To the best of my knowledge it is illegal to OC in Texas anyways unless you're a LEO on or off duty. The guy was just being a know it all and I haven't heard of any one getting jumped and shot with an OC weapon in my neck of east Texas.

 

[Bigcarlover]

Sounds to me like you did well, and had the best scenario. You basically backfired his plans. You came across as a decent citizen, and he came across as the a-hole. Exactly the opposite of what he hoped to get out of his grandstanding.

He might have succeeded too (in the others minds) had you not remained calm, cool, collected and stuck with the facts to make your argument, rather than coming at him with attitude. So I thank you. You did us proud.

 

[Treo]

You are far more tolerant than I will ever be

 

[Deserteagle]

Sometimes you just gotta say, F off.

 

[SGB]

I think you killed him with civility and he ended up looking the ass, well done.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Thanks for all the replies and support. You guys gave me a lot of things to think about to enhance my argument. I definitely feel I have a better grasp on this kind of encounter though, 1st one is out the way.

Sometimes you just gotta say, F off.

Heh, sometimes. I believe the customer has had some experience with firearms because he had the knowledge of what an IWB holster was. But that really doesn't say much, so I do not know exactly his stance on firearms (maybe something I should ask next time I encounter someone of this nature). The thing is...imagine this:

Someone comes onto the forum and posts: I saw my first OC today! I asked him a few questions, and then he told me to F Off....it's guys like him that make us all look bad. ( I was trying to avoid being that guy, but maybe I was also too humble and he wasn't taking me seriously).

You are far more tolerant than I will ever be

I have been told that before. It's a running bet to see who can get me angry at my work. I told them, unless they attempt to hurt me, they would not get a rise out of me, and if they did attempt to hurt me, they better prepare for war because I take that seriously. They have failed to get me angry so far. It drives them nuts. But like everything in life, nothing is absolute, and I am always learning, and have been in situations that I have recapped later and felt my tolerance actually lowered my sense of alarm when it should have been higher.

Sounds to me like you did well, and had the best scenario. You basically backfired his plans. You came across as a decent citizen, and he came across as the a-hole. Exactly the opposite of what he hoped to get out of his grandstanding.

He might have succeeded too (in the others minds) had you not remained calm, cool, collected and stuck with the facts to make your argument, rather than coming at him with attitude. So I thank you. You did us proud.

I hope so. This wasn't a big incident by any means, it stayed inside the 4 guys at the counter, and the lady sitting in a chair behind me, no one else in the store seemed to notice or care. It seemed the GSG and the BBE were both in my favor, they would nod their head every time I said something, and kind of eagerly waited to hear what the customer would ask next. It makes me wonder what the rest of their days were like, and even though it didn't seem like I put any kind of impression on the customer, I hope they went home or to their buddies and had a decent talk about firearms in WA.

I think you handled it well.
As I live in Texas I can say that if you are OCing the least of your issues will be "thugs thinking your a cop". And I'm almost positive no ccw (chl here in Texas) has been targeted because they think he's a cop. Now I'm not sure on the statistics of "thug attempts robbery, ccw draws and points, thug wrestles gun from ccw, thug shoots ccw for their trouble." I'm also pretty sure the rate of leo (off duty and on duty) murder or "offing" is no greater then anywhere else. I live in dfw area and work in Dallas (as a paramedic for a private service dfd handles the 911) we usually post at one of the hospitals in a bad part of town, and at least once a week you see the fd come in followed by 3-5 squad cars. Don't know if that qualifies as a large number or not. But I also don't how many of those fallen officers pass away vs treat and released.
Again congrats on keeping your cool!

Thanks for the reply, I was pretty confused with a few of his comments, but the Texas one takes the cake. I don't think he even realized that I called his bluff, that open carry is illegal (therefore it doesnt happen in Texas), so how could an open carrier get targeted? I did not work in the hospital in my last town, so I don't know how many officers got treated and released, but I do know, only one officer has died in the past 70 years (Eugene, OR). So to me, it would seem Texas is much more dangerous for an LEO than Eugene, OR. Maybe there was a little bit of truth behind the customers statements.

Good job! You kept your cool and had answers for his remarks. I CC but I feel that we all provide a deterrent. Whether it is the CC'er or the guy on the street that confronts a BG it slows other BG's down and possibly eliminates one completely. The OC'er might very well dissuade the immediate action of a BG. In any case we all benefit. One thing that the OC accomplishes is the familiarization of guns with the general public. Your speaking pleasantly and intelligently served us all well, thank you.

Thank you, and I agree with you as well that CC has a passive deterrent value associated with it. It creates hesitation in bad guys on every victim, they have to think, "Do I think they are armed or not?" While OC has a more up front presentation of deterrence, both methods of carry hold a value against criminals.


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[Mojo57]

Why don't you simply tell him it's non of his business who you are as far whether you're a LEO or why you open carry?? Sorry, if I open carried and someone started started asking me questions especially with a condescending tone I would simply say with all due respect sir it's none of your business. But that's just me.

 

[ironmike86]

You are far more tolerant than I will ever be

That's why I can't OC. Ppl will drive me to explode. I have alot of patience but little at a time. OP did a good job IMO

 

[Firefighterchen]

Why don't you simply tell him it's non of his business who you are as far whether you're a LEO or why you open carry?? Sorry, if I open carried and someone started started asking me questions especially with a condescending tone I would simply say with all due respect sir it's none of your business. But that's just me.

No need to be sorry, you have a good point, and maybe next time that will be the best strategy especially if I pick up the tone that quick again. But, this was my first negative encounter, so to be honest I was also a little drawn back, so I tried to tread lightly. Depending on the circumstances next time, I very well could take your advice and respectfully tell him to stay out of my business.


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[Mojo57]

I can appreciate. And I also appreciate some people's desire to educate the public but it seems most are just going to be a jerk no matter.

 

[Treo]

But that's just me.

I assure you it is not just you

 

[Firefighterchen]

I can appreciate. And I also appreciate some people's desire to educate the public but it seems most are just going to be a jerk no matter.

Definitely there are people, like this customer, who will not be persuaded any other way. Would I consider it most people? No, not to me at least. I, like you, appreciate someones decision to be educating and/or private about their firearms. Out of the, maybe dozen or so, encounters this was my first negative one, so I ill maintain that most people are actually quite nice, and will listen. The few jerks, yea, I will have to sharpen my edges and harden my defenses against that foe.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I would like to add, I do appreciate the support...

But I would like more constructive criticism. I am always trying to better myself and my arguments. Any and all suggestions, and questions or answers that would have been more appropriate/stronger will be greatly appreciated as well. I have grown a couple layers of thick skin from joining this sight, so chip away, and I'll try not to be defensive about it

One of my screw ups, is I ran out of the WA firearms pamphlet I was given at the last OC meeting, I need to print more off, that would of been a perfect time to hand one (or three) out.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I can appreciate. And I also appreciate some people's desire to educate the public but it seems most are just going to be a jerk no matter.

While I would like to think I would have conducted my self with similar diplomacy and restraint as FFC, I have yet to have to prove it. Referencing the bolded part of Mojo's post, I have given out over 200 OC and 2A flyers and have had twice the number of encounters and every one was very positive, especially in comparison to the OP.

I would say, at least in my little slice of heaven, PA, most people are not going to be jerks about it. I do understand that geography and local politics plays a role however.

 

[Bikenut]

Definitely there are people, like this customer, who will not be persuaded any other way. Would I consider it most people? No, not to me at least. I, like you, appreciate someones decision to be educating and/or private about their firearms. Out of the, maybe dozen or so, encounters this was my first negative one, so I ill maintain that most people are actually quite nice, and will listen. The few jerks, yea, I will have to sharpen my edges and harden my defenses against that foe.

In my experience... the folks who challenge an OC'er are not curious and they are not scared... they are outraged to see someone dare do something they do not approve of. And there is no reasoning with them because their "feelings", their "ego", has been dented.

However, it isn't the challenger who is important in these confrontations because his mind is made up. The important folks are the ones who are watching and listening to see which person has the better argument. And, like all arguments, half of winning is how the person talking is perceived by the listener. A calm, confident, person offering reasonable and factual statements will be perceived in a positive manner while the angry, aggressive, loud, and insulting person attempting to bully and intimidate will be perceived as.. a jerk.

So... In my humble opinion... you did good. You presented yourself as calm and factual while letting the jerk prove he was a jerk.