Firearms Owner's Rights V. Property Owner's rights

Treo

Treo

Bullet Proof
First let me be clear I am not talking about carrying in a place where it is legally prohibited.

I’m talking about a privately owned public establishment that prohibits firearms.

What are the ethics involved with carrying in such an establishment? What harm have you caused the owner of such an establishment? What harm have you caused the RKBA movement?

What would John Quinones do?
 
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Treo said:
First let me be clear I am not talking about carrying in a place where it is legally prohibited, I’m talking about a privately owned public establishment that prohibits firearms.

What are the ethics involved with carrying in such an establishment? What harm have you caused the owner of such an establishment? What harm have you caused the RKBA movement?

What would John Quinones do?
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any property owner has a right to prohibit weapons on his property, that said if the property involved is a business open to the public like a mall or a big box store I tend to ignore such signs.
you need to be careful because ignoring signs saying no guns can get you in big trouble depending on what state you live in. In some states those signs are legally binding and ignoring them can get you a free ride to jail.
in other states the signs are meaningless. for example I live in FLA and those signs have no law backing them up however if a property owner asks you to leave you must immediately comply or you could be arrested for armed trespass.
the bottom line is that you must check the laws regarding the no gun signs in any state you plan to be carry a gun in. and that if properly concealing nobody will know that you are carrying
 
When the private property owner installs functioning metal detectors and a restricted entry system that insures everyone else I come in contact with on the property will not be armed, then I have no issue with honoring a no weapons sign. Until that time I'm going to do what I feel I need to do to protect me and mine as best I can.
 
There is so much that can be said, so many points of view, so many variables, but in general these are my opinions based on my location.

What are the ethics involved with carrying in such an establishment?


It is disrespectful to ignore the signs. Just like it would be disrespectful to bring your pet into a store that doesn't allow them, or not wearing your shirt or shoes, or speeding through their parking lot. I do not think it is disrespectful for them to ask me to disarm, or ask me to wear my clothing if I want to shop in their store.

Financially, I do not like to give businesses money that are anti gun. That's impossible to do, but at least for the stores that put in the effort to put up the sign, I can put the effort into going somewhere else. What they don't know won't hurt them...sure (could the same be said about speeding and peeping Tom's?)...but I do not want to help them either.

Fortunately for me, there are no gun buster signs in my area, or at least none that I have seen on any private establishment. Nor have I been asked to leave any establishment, but have had numerous conversations with employees and other customers about citizens carrying a firearm. So it's been a win win situation so far.

What harm have you caused the owner of such an establishment?

Physically and emotionally, probably none. Who knows maybe he crapped his pants and slip and hit his head? I feel if the owner puts a sign up after someone is "caught" carrying, the person carrying was not the one to change the owners mind, it had been that way the entire time. I suppose financially there could be people with hoplophobia that the business will lose, but in any case whether or not they kick people out, they are going to lose customers. There are a lot more people for guns than against guns, prime example is what happen with Starbucks.

What harm have you caused the RKBA movement?

Little things will eventually add up. The anti gun lobbies are going to push no matter what, but the more little screw ups we have, the more they can use. We have seen them use some ridiculous information too.
 
fullyarmedcitizen said:
doublebarr said:
When the private property owner installs functioning metal detectors that insures everyone else I come in contact with on the property will not be armed, then I have no issue with honoring a no weapons sign. Until that time I'm going to do what I feel I need to do to protect me and mine as best I can.
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Look everyone. Another selfish, disrespectful self seeking person like myself. :unsure:
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I agree with the disrespectful part, but double hasn't shown any selfish self seeking attitude quite like you have, so they don't fit her description.
 
apvbguy said:
you need to be careful because ignoring signs saying no guns can get you in big trouble depending on what state you live in. In some states those signs are legally binding and ignoring them can get you a free ride to jail.
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Which is probably why I was very careful to stipulate that I wasn't talking about carrying where it was legally prohibited
 
Seems to me that if we support rights, we support rights even ones we disagree with. And if someone does not support our rights then we should protect their right even as we refuse to support that enterprise.
 
IMO opinion, the property owner's rights trump your 2A rights. If you don't like it, simply find a different place to shop or abide by his/her rules. It's basically like "No Shirt No Shoes No Service". Being shirt or shoeless can't possibly cause any harm but those are the rules of the shop.
 
fullyarmedcitizen said:
I'm a bit torn on this one.... Where is the line between private property owners right and the Second Amendment? Does one trump the other? Does the business owner have the right to deny someone the right to practice his Constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms? I would like to know this answer myself. Aside from public sidewalks and the like, everywhere is private property. So if every private property owner put up a sign, we would not be able to carry weapons anywhere.
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The second amendment prohibits the government from denying the right to bear arms. The bill of rights establishes freedoms that cannot be taken from us by the gtovernment. On private property there is no right to bear arms if the owner prohibits it. In fact, there is no right to be on the property at all. Open to the public does not mean "public place." The owner can ask anyone to leave at any time and be within the law. Perhaps he's scared of guns. As rediculous as we may think that is, he has the right to not be afraid in his own establishment. Then we must also consider castle doctrine. Most castle doctrine laws provide the right of self defense in the home or by an owner of a business on premises he owns or rents. I generally ignore the signs and remain concealed. If anyone were to ask me to leave I would politely do so. I won't restrict my business only to those who allow carry... I might miss-out on a great deal.
 
Concealed is concealed, besides the no gun policy may be a corporate thing and not local management policy. In Oregon if asked to leave, leave. Otherwise it's a trespass issue.
 
BC1 said:
The second amendment prohibits the government from denying the right to bear arms. The bill of rights establishes freedoms that cannot be taken from us by the gtovernment. On private property there is no right to bear arms if the owner prohibits it. In fact, there is no right to be on the property at all. Open to the public does not mean "public place." The owner can ask anyone to leave at any time and be within the law. Perhaps he's scared of guns. As rediculous as we may think that is, he has the right to not be afraid in his own establishment. Then we must also consider castle doctrine. Most castle doctrine laws provide the right of self defense in the home or by an owner of a business on premises he owns or rents. I generally ignore the signs and remain concealed. If anyone were to ask me to leave I would politely do so. I won't restrict my business only to those who allow carry... I might miss-out on a great deal.
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As BC1 said the 2nd Amendment is only binding on the government... not individuals.

Private property rights.. the right to be in control of your own property... trumps ALL rights simply because the property owner can deny you, and your rights, entry according to his rules.

If he so wishes a private property owner can deny access to his property to anyone who..

Decides to preach a sermon or to suddenly hold mass or a prayer meeting in the middle of aisle 2... so much for freedom of religion.

Decides to make a political speech or to make a speech of any kind.... so much for freedom of speech.

Decides to carry a gun on/in his property... so much for the right to bear arms...

And that is exactly as it should be because... you have no right to be on/in anyone's property without their permission.... and entering is tacitly agreeing to abide by the owner's rules in exchange for that permission. Failure to abide by the rules results in revocation of that permission... (you get kicked out).

In regards to property rights your home isn't any different than your local Wal Mart in that it is not owned by the government.. and the Bill of Rights ONLY binds the government... not individuals.

Please consider this simplistic example:

You decide to have a garage sale so you open your property to the public giving tacit permission to individual members of the public to enter your property for the purpose of doing business (buying your junk stuff). You still have the right to make rules governing the behavior of anyone who takes you up on your permission and that your permission is contingent upon those folks obeying your rules.

Folks who do enter your property also tacitly agree to your rules for the privilege of being on your property. Please note I said "privilege" because no one other than the owner has any right to be on/in that property at all.

Here is the important part...

In respect to private property rights your garage sale is the very same thing as a big corporation store like Wal Mart... the only difference is Wal Mart is a much bigger............... garage sale.
 
Honestly, most of the time I'm not thinking about the fact that I'm carrying. So I'm probably going to do it. Unless there's a way they're going to find out, it's simply not going to be an issue.
 
I've had an LTC since (if memory serves) 1992... in all that time I've only seen (about 10 days ago) one establishment that had a posted notice "PLEASE, NO LOADED WEAPONS IN THE STORE", it was a pawn shop that had a bunch of weapons and ammo out on display.

I've also been in a bunch of similar establishments that had no such signage, other than those at gun shops and ranges that read something like..., "ALL FIREARMS MUST BE BOXED, CASED, OR HOLSTERED, AND MUST REMAIN SO WHILE IN THIS STORE/RANGE, WITHOUT PERMISSION TO THE CONTRARY FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT"

I live in Indiana, and have no idea if the "NO GUNS" signs have the weight of law behind them, but I believe it IS legal for any establishment to refuse service, or entry to anyone, at the owner's discretion... and failure to comply, could constitute trespassing.

so, I think TREO has a good question/dilemma to think about both on an ethical plane, and actual encounter situation...
 
Treo said:
Actually that is a health code and it can cause harm through transmitted disease
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Paul Revere was released from custody after being captured by the British. Why? Because he bluffed them and warned them (just like Sarah Palin said) amd told them a large militia was waiting for them in the next town. As they approached they heard multiple gunshots. Fearing Revere's warning was true they released him and retreated.

What does that have to do with this thread? The shots they heard were a group of men entering a tavern that required all weapons to be unloaded upon entry. The only way to unload a muzzle loader was by firing it.

Property rights initially trumped second amendment rights.

And those rules applied for any military or law enforcement also.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
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