Experience with violation of 18 USC 930(a)

[elcid01]

My wife and i have a query regarding a issue with the above law.

We moved this weekend from one apartment to another in the same building. My wife has one SW .38 revolver that I have gifted her. She doesn't have a CCL, but I do and CC other weapons on a daily basis.

I had accountability of all my firearms and ammo. I asked my wife to stick her 38 in her purse for the move because I didn't trust the strangers in my home. This was after all my weapons were secured in the new house.

Fast forward to Monday (yesterday) when my wife went into work with the 38 still in her large bag. This is a typical ladies bag with everything under the sun in it so a 15oz loaded 38 is hard to feel. The kicker is that I am active duty Army and she is a contractor in a federal facility. She was stopped, searched, and cited with a violation of the above code. On our doors to the building there was no sign stating the violation warnings, she was unknowing of the weapon per the code, and had No intent of hostility towards anyone in the building.

We have hired aLawyer and are going to fight this.

Anyone else know a case similar?

Thanks in advance

Mr TC Owens

 

[Geosan1030]

Not a lawyer.

But, it's fairly common knowledge that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking a law. Easy to say, but very hard to live by since we live in a society that loves to promulgate laws and regulations.

Not sure where you live, but as a CCL holder, I assume you've had some classroom training relating to the law concerning where you can carry and where you can not. Federal facilities are always at the top of that list.

Now, I realize that she is not a CCL, but the federal facility prohibition is fairly well known.

I'm actually rather surprised she wasn't taken into custody.

 

[Kosher kowboy]

Yes, I have experience with a similar situation. You have a fairly serious problem on your hands. In most instances, to be convicted of a felony, intent must be shown however, this particular statute is of a variety called a strict liability crime in which the government does not have to prove intent. There doesn't appear to be a defense available to you, however, if you have hired a lawyer that practices in the area of federal crimes, he may be able to prevail on the prosecution to dismiss the case. Of course, this is further complicated by the recent shooting spree on a military base.

 

[ezkl2230]

She doesn't have a CPL but you, presumably knowing the law since you have a CPL and knowing that she could not legally carry the weapon concealed, had her put the .38 in her bag anyway (you couldn't find ANY OTHER WAY to legally secure or carry this firearm?!), YOU neglected to remind her that she had the firearm in her bag (after all, as the CPL holder, the responsibility rests with you as the one who instructed her to carry it illegally in the first place), she went into a federal facility carrying said firearm and got pinched doing it - this after the recent Navy Yard shooting.

I assume that the ONLY reason she wasn't locked up is because they figured out that she had no intent, for which you can be INCREDIBLY thankful.

As for fighting the charges, you had better have one high-powered attorney. I will be interested to see if you keep your CPL given your role in this situation. This may sound a bit harsh, but since I see no no remorse evidenced in your posting - only a desire to fight widely known federal laws that prohibit the unauthorized carry of firearms into a federal facility, how does it feel to know that you jeopardized your wife's employment, any security clearance she might hold, and possibly her freedom by asking her to violate the law in this manner?

This is an interesting first post.

 

[elcid01]

Thanks for all your comments. This was just a inquiry as to others experience in this manner.

Not all the facts were presented in this post. Thank you for your insights.

TC

 

[JCliff]

I agree with ezkl2230's comments here. Frankly, you should have known better. Hiring an attorney was a very good choice, I hope for your wife's sake he/she is a really good one. This will cost you a pretty shiny penny, but with what appears to be lack of intent you will probably avoid a felony conviction. Maybe. At the very least, I doubt you'll get that firearm back. Hopefully your wife is not dismissed from her job over this.

 

[BluesStringer]

She doesn't have a CPL but you, presumably knowing the law since you have a CPL and knowing that she could not legally carry the weapon concealed, had her put the .38 in her bag anyway (you couldn't find ANY OTHER WAY to legally secure or carry this firearm?!), YOU neglected to remind her that she had the firearm in her bag (after all, as the CPL holder, the responsibility rests with you as the one who instructed her to carry it illegally in the first place), she went into a federal facility carrying said firearm and got pinched doing it - this after the recent Navy Yard shooting.

Good grief there's a lot of taking stuff for granted here.

1) It may not have been illegal for her to have the weapon concealed as they were simply walking on private property from one apartment to another. There's no legal violation that I can imagine there, whether or not she has a permission slip. There might be a property owner's policy violation, but no legal one that I can think of.

2) Where in the law does it say that the "responsibility rests" with a third party who wasn't even there when the violation was discovered? Lacking proof of some nefarious conspiracy between husband and wife to commit a crime, that is the antithesis of constitutional law!

3) Since when is an adult in this country not responsible for their actions just because another adult "instructed" them to do something?

4) Why should or would the recent Navy Yard shooting have any bearing on the outcome of a case that is clearly borne of an honest mistake?

As for fighting the charges, you had better have one high-powered attorney. I will be interested to see if you keep your CPL given your role in this situation.

His "role?" You mean the part where he says, "Hey Honey, can you grab that and carry it over to the new apartment" and she forgot about it after she got there? You're suggesting there actually was some nefarious conspiracy between them. My goodness, you're letting your imagination get away from you.

This may sound a bit harsh, but since I see no no remorse evidenced in your posting - only a desire to fight widely known federal laws that prohibit the unauthorized carry of firearms into a federal facility, how does it feel to know that you jeopardized your wife's employment, any security clearance she might hold, and possibly her freedom by asking her to violate the law in this manner?

It does indeed sound harsh. We all "fight widely known federal laws" concerning guns, or if we don't, we're on the wrong damned website. Not that the OP was doing anything of the sort intentionally, but still.....you do "fight widely known federal" gun laws on a fairly regular basis, don't you?

And remind us again how asking someone to transport a weapon from one apartment to another, all on private property, is "violating the law."

This is an interesting first post.

And answering that last question without saying "Oops" should be interesting to watch too.

Blues

 

[Seeya]

Mugler v. Kansas 123 U.S. 623, 659-60.
"Our system of government, based upon the individuality and intelligence
of the Citizen, the state does not claim to control him, except as his
conduct to others, leaving him the sole judge as to all that only affects
himself."

Supreme Law School : E-mail : Box 036 : Msg 03678

 

[NavyLCDR]

Your only real defense is 18 USC 930 (h). However, being a contractor, I'm willing to bet she signed a statement that firearms were not allowed so the part in bold will negate the defense. Good luck.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

 

[telpinaro]

That's one heck of an oops! Though having used a gigantic purse when my kid was a baby (in HI, no guns), I can see how things could get lost in it. Not sure how you don't remember a gun... but moving can be stressful, I suppose.

No advice, but... good luck. Think you'll need it!

 

[JimTh]

That is one hell of a pickle you helped your wife get into. Here in Virginia we had a substitute teacher forget to unload her purse and she did carry her gun into the school building. She accidentally left her purse laying around and someone else discovered it thinking it was lost. Fishing around inside the purse looking for ID the gun was discovered. The teacher was convicted of a misdemeanor and lost her concealed carry permit.

I feel terrible for your wife. Although she was ultimately responsible, she did something for your benefit and safety...unlawfully carrying concealed to begin with. You owe her big time. You need to make sure she has the best gun lawyer in Oregon...even if that means getting some extra jobs part time. If she gets convicted of a federal felony she will be banned for life from possessing firearms (constructive possession as well). That means your firearms too. Be prepared to sell them or get Fort Knox because a firearm possession by a felon conviction in a federal court could mean up to 15 years in a federal prison. She would serve about 13.5 years under federal rules. You don't think Holder wants your guns...think again.

I am just assuming it was a felony. If it was the guns need to be secured now even prior to conviction. Don't even think of letting her try to purchase a firearm until all this is disposed of. A wrong answer on the 4473 and she will get rolled up on again.

Now...go and get those part time jobs!

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am just assuming it was a felony.

It is a Class A Misdemeanor punishable by not more than 1 year in prison and/or up to $100,000 fine.

18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.


18 USC § 3559 - Sentencing classification of offenses
(a) Classification.— An offense that is not specifically classified by a letter grade in the section defining it, is classified if the maximum term of imprisonment authorized is—
(6) one year or less but more than six months, as a Class A misdemeanor;


18 USC § 3571 - Sentence of fine
(b) Fines for Individuals.— Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, an individual who has been found guilty of an offense may be fined not more than the greatest of—
(5) for a Class A misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $100,000

 

[jcreek]

If she gets convicted of a federal felony she will be banned for life from possessing firearms (constructive possession as well). That means your firearms too. Be prepared to sell them

This is not completely correct. He would not have to sell them. As long as they are locked in a safe that she does not have access too, they cannot charge constructive possession. I had a roommate once who was a felon (completely unbeknownst to me until after he had already signed the lease). I contacted the AG and asked him the same question. He said as long as they were in my locked room or safe it was legal to have my guns in the house.

Don't ever let a friend of a friend move in with you..

 

[elcid01]

All is taken care of. Thanks for the accusations and jumping to judgment for those who posted. Especially ezkl2230 who without 90% of the facts presented made some very interesting remarks.

Mods please delete this thread thanks,

TC

 

[ezkl2230]

All is taken care of. Thanks for the accusations and jumping to judgment for those who posted. Especially ezkl2230 who without 90% of the facts presented made some very interesting remarks.

Mods please delete this thread thanks,

TC

Next time be more forthcoming with the facts.

 

[BluesStringer]

Next time be more forthcoming with the facts.

Or maybe next time you could be less forthcoming with the wild conjecture. Just a thought.

 

[elcid01]

In my original post I asked if anyone had any experience in this manner. Not pass judgement without knowing the facts like you and others did.

Bluestringer- thanks!

 

[thru]

Referring to your post about somebody shooting a mass killer wannabe, what about a civilian ccw is some sort of "guarantee" that there won't be bullets sprayed all over the place, hmm? That's what happens when cops get involved, and they have far more training/experience than 99% of civilian guntoters ever get. I'm perfectly willing to see (and undergo) MORE demanding training (and re quals) for ccw for civilians than the palty amount given to cops (since the cops prove that they are inept in almost every instance).

 

[BluesStringer]

In my original post I asked if anyone had any experience in this manner. Not pass judgement without knowing the facts like you and others did.

Bluestringer- thanks!

Just for the record, my opinion is that ezkl2230 is one of the smartest, most interesting, most well-read and best contributors on this site. I found the post to which I replied of his to be way out of character and it surprised me to the point of probably being as inappropriately harsh towards him as I think he was towards you. I hope if you stick around, you don't hold his posts in this thread against him, just as I hope he doesn't hold mine against me.

Your story, elcid01, was bound to illicit some criticisms, some of which I agree with, but none of which did I feel the need to pile on about. It sounds like your wife is in for a rough ride at best. I don't see where you have any legal culpability at all, but you asked for people with experience with the code section you cited, and that's definitely not me. All I can say is best of luck to both of you. I'll pray for y'all that the only consequences you suffer is the daunting fear of what could have happened to you, and that that fear is enough to make y'all never make such avoidable, and potentially devastating, mistakes again.

Blues

 

[ezkl2230]

Just for the record, my opinion is that ezkl2230 is one of the smartest, most interesting, most well-read and best contributors on this site. I found the post to which I replied of his to be way out of character and it surprised me to the point of probably being as inappropriately harsh towards him as I think he was towards you. I hope if you stick around, you don't hold his posts in this thread against him, just as I hope he doesn't hold mine against me.

Your story, elcid01, was bound to illicit some criticisms, some of which I agree with, but none of which did I feel the need to pile on about. It sounds like your wife is in for a rough ride at best. I don't see where you have any legal culpability at all, but you asked for people with experience with the code section you cited, and that's definitely not me. All I can say is best of luck to both of you. I'll pray for y'all that the only consequences you suffer is the daunting fear of what could have happened to you, and that that fear is enough to make y'all never make such avoidable, and potentially devastating, mistakes again.

Blues

Blues - no hard feelings. For what it's worth, there were a couple of posts here that drew pretty much the same conclusion that I did. Admittedly, mine was a bit harsher. I probably could have toned it down a touch.