Evidence at Shooting Scene

[joemendoza]

Here's a scenario -- BG attacks me, I do a legal self defense shoot. Then before the cops arrive I take pictures of my bruises and the BG's machete (being careful not to move anything, give the disk to my wife and tell her to put it in her purse so I can give them to the lawyer before we give it to the DA. Or it may be a tape recording I take away.

Am I in trouble for concealing evidence? Could they search my wife? If she put it in the car could they search that w/o permission? What if my wife takes it back to the house and stores the disk there? I assume they will need a warrant to look for it, even if they suspect it's there. Or is this something they can come into the house for without a warrant?

Just trying to protect myself against cops who incompetently or maliciously lose the evidence ...

 

[CathyInBlue]

First, there's no concealing evidence unless there's A) a duty to disclose, i.e., you just axe murdered a bunch of people... and then hid the axe. You defended yourself and take away nothing but COPIES of INFORMATION in the form of photos and verbally recorded affidavits. It's all still there, undisturbed for the authorities to collect copies of all over again, nothing concealled.

B) the police know about it or would reasonably be expected to uncover it, i.e., if you just defended yourself with a firearm and your wife takes said firearm away from the scene. It's a fait accompli that the police would know there was a firearm owned by you involved when you claim self defense. Then you've concealled evidence of a crime. The crime being the attack upon you by the decedent. If the police do not, and cannot know of your photographs or tape recorded affidavit, then there's no concealment.

C) if they ask for it and you don't produce it, i.e., you turned the evidence over to your wife. Your wife turned it over to your attorney. You're attorney refuses to turn it over to the DA, then your attorney would be guilty of concealling evidence because the police know about, asked for it, and you ... they didn't pony it up.

Now, if there was evidence like GSR on the decedent's shirt, which you removed by laundering it at the laundromat around the corner (love those response times) before putting it back on the corpse, then, again, you've concealled evidence because the crime lab would reasonably be expected to detect it if it were left there, even if there would be next to no way, in this outlandish example, for them to detect the concealment, assuming the shirt was thick enough that the flesh was not stippled underneath.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey Joe: Let me get this straight--you just got done shooting someone and maybe killing them in the process and you are thinking about taking pictures and videos and wondering what the LEOs will think. I sure hope this thread is just one of those random thoughts we all have when we are sitting around at 5PM with a martini and "thinkin about things" thrown out there for discussion.

 

[SC Tiger]

Hey Joe: Let me get this straight--you just got done shooting someone and maybe killing them in the process and you are thinking about taking pictures and videos and wondering what the LEOs will think. I sure hope this thread is just one of those random thoughts we all have when we are sitting around at 5PM with a martini and "thinkin about things" thrown out there for discussion.

Sounds like it. If you can do it, it would be an excellent idea to write down exactly what happened as you remember it, but don't turn it over to the police. Sometimes when we calm down we remember things that we didn't right after the incident. Anything you can do to document what happened is an excellent idea as memories get short sometimes and the police ain't perfect.

 

[twogunwilly]

just edit out the part where you yell "action" and "cut"

 

[joemendoza]

Thanks for the comments. Next question: everyone says never ever talk to LEOs without your lawyer. But does this apply in a self-defense shoot. I'd have no problem if the BG had, say broken into my house at night and had fired a gun at me. But in a situation where he's dead and one of the buddies he had with him is liable to say that I attacked him first, or whatever.

I ask because in a lot of the news stories where the shooter was not charged, he did go down and talked to the police for a couple of hours. Call me paranoid -- too many other cases where the cops either don't get it right or are otherwise incompetent.

 

[wolfhunter]

Thanks for the comments. Next question: everyone says never ever talk to LEOs without your lawyer. But does this apply in a self-defense shoot. I'd have no problem if the BG had, say broken into my house at night and had fired a gun at me. But in a situation where he's dead and one of the buddies he had with him is liable to say that I attacked him first, or whatever.

I ask because in a lot of the news stories where the shooter was not charged, he did go down and talked to the police for a couple of hours. Call me paranoid -- too many other cases where the cops either don't get it right or are otherwise incompetent.

Ever heard the phrase "Anything you say can and will be used against you"? While you may have been justified in your actions, an adrenaline- or shock-driven comment may not come out as what you MEANT to say. Cooperate with the LEOs, but save any but the most basic statements for when you've had a chance to gather your thoughts and your lawyer.

 

[SC Tiger]

When in doubt, call a lawyer.

 

[Anthony_I_Am]

I'm not a lawyer but I can guarantee you the detectives are gonna take pictures to give to the prosecutor. Nothing wrong with having your own evidence. Remember the cops work for and are paid by the state - the prosecutor. They aren't there to collect evidence to defend you. That's the public defender or your attorneys job.

I carry my phone all the time and you can bet if I am involved in a SD situation I'm going to take all the photos I can and upload them to photobucket with my phone. So there will be no photos for me to "hand over".

Of course, you'd never want to tamper with any of the evidence, but photos aren't tampering so long as you are just photographing and don't touch anything.

I really wouldn't care what the cops thought of my photos. I'm just documenting the incident.

And if the cops wanted copies of the photos I took, I would act on the advice of my attorney.



The alternative???? Sitting in a cell with some guy who thinks I'm cute, wishing I'd taken photos to assist in my defense.

 

[oakchas]

This is why you don't talk to the police... you talk to a lawyer:

Link Removed

"I was afraid for my life. I want to speak to my lawyer." And now, thanks to the Supremes, you also say "I wish to talk to my lawyer and I wish to remain silent until I do." After they read the Miranda card to you.

 

[mappow]

I would say that upon arrival and evaluation of the crime scene, the police will follow either one of two paths:
1.) Evidence shows this was a legal shoot. They will gather as much evidence as possible, including photos, statements, shells and yes the machete. Combine a full report and turn it all over to the D.A. for his review. After his/her full review and possibly subsequent interviews he/she declares it a justifiable shoot and no charges pending.
2.) Evidence shows there is probable cause that this was not a good shoot. A "Field" interview may be done during this "fact" finding and you're Mirandized.
In either instance, I would be extremely careful giving any full blown statements. Be as concise as possible, but extremely limited on information. Remember, the D.A. makes the final decision on prosecution. The police just gather the evidence. IF PC is established at the scene, Lawyer up!

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

 

[CathyInBlue]

Regardless, it's not a case of justifiable homicide until the DA says it is. Your first interaction with the police at the scene of the shooting will not be after that occurrence, it will be before it. While you're babbling about how he came at you with a loaded .45, they could just as easily be taking the empty .40 into evidence, and now you're story is inconsistent with the facts in at least one aspect, causing them to suspect the rest of your babblings.

TL;DR: STFU There is not the first goddamned thing you need to tell the police at the scene of a one-on-one self-defense justifiable homicide that can't wait until after you've talked with your lawyer, except that you want to talk to your lawyer, and that you'll remain silent until then.

 

[joemendoza]

So at my Concealed Carry class last week found out about a law firm in Texas that will represent you at all stages, and answer all questions beforehand -- they are your Texas gun attorney on retainer. Texaslawshield.com -- dont know if other similar firms like Pre-paid Legal include the same kind of service in their much higher fees

 

[Islander]

Deinitely STFU. Simply say that this has been a traumatic experience and that you will be happy to give a full statement after you have spoken with your attorney.

I stole this from a blog: After you receive your Miranda reading, tell the police you want to write a statement. Then write "I want to remain silent until my attorney is present".

 

[Islander]

Delete

 

[theicemanmpls]

Take pictures? why not?

Don't touch anything.

When you call 911, becareful of what you say.

Remember, channel 5 news will play it on air.

A jury may hear the recording.

Remember, the police are not your friends.

You have used a firearm in self defense.

Some of the police think they are the only ones who have a "right" to shoot at other humans.

Be polite with the police.

Give them only name, rank, serial number.

Find a criminal defense attorney.

This is going to cost you. You were aware of that when you strapped on that pistol.

Your firearm will be seized. You will have to jump through hoops to get it back.

Some folks here say to carry a cheap pistol in the event you shoot someone.

That way, when your pistol is seized, it's no big deal.

I say BS. Carry something that works well, and works for you.

Do not make any statements, oral, or written.

Tell the cops you will be happy to talk with them, after you lawyer up.

You may be cuffed up, and jailed.

Not a fun thing to do.

Jail sucks.

The cops want you to talk.

They want as many people in the system as they can get.

That is what they do.

Protect yourself.

 

[handgonnetoter]

Take pictures? why not?

Don't touch anything.

When you call 911, becareful of what you say.

Remember, channel 5 news will play it on air.

A jury may hear the recording.

Remember, the police are not your friends.

You have used a firearm in self defense.

Some of the police think they are the only ones who have a "right" to shoot at other humans.

Be polite with the police.

Give them only name, rank, serial number.

Find a criminal defense attorney.

This is going to cost you. You were aware of that when you strapped on that pistol.

Your firearm will be seized. You will have to jump through hoops to get it back.

Some folks here say to carry a cheap pistol in the event you shoot someone.

That way, when your pistol is seized, it's no big deal.

I say BS. Carry something that works well, and works for you.

Do not make any statements, oral, or written.

Tell the cops you will be happy to talk with them, after you lawyer up.

You may be cuffed up, and jailed.

Not a fun thing to do.

Jail sucks.

The cops want you to talk.

They want as many people in the system as they can get.

That is what they do.

Protect yourself.

Your right, just saw an episode of COPS the other day that almost that very same thing happened. Some dude in Arizona was at his home playing pool with two guys that were about half his age and bigger and stronger. Some kind of scuffle breaks out and the two younger guys start beating the tar out of the older guy. They really messed the old guy up. Old guy pulls his Kel Tec P3AT out and shoots one of the younger ones twice in the belly. The two younger ones leave and just start walking down the street. The older guy calls the cops and reports what happen, then they find the two younger ones and call an ambulance for the one who was shot. One cop, with the camera guy in tow, goes back to where the older dude was waiting out in front of his house for them - he was lying on the front lawn. He even had his gun unloaded and waiting for the police. (He had a CCW permit too!) The "better than thou cop" takes him into custody, even though the guys face looked like pizza, and confinscated his gun and said to the camera guy, "well, we arrested the shooter and got another gun off the street". Even my daughter looked at me and said "huh"? Just goes to show that even with the proper paperwork and legally own gun, in his own house to boot, those stupid cops hauled him off while rolling out the red carpet for the other two a_ _ holes.:fie:

 

[THE DUKE OF ESSEX]

Take pictures? why not?

Don't touch anything.

When you call 911, becareful of what you say.

Remember, channel 5 news will play it on air.

A jury may hear the recording.

Remember, the police are not your friends.

You have used a firearm in self defense.

Some of the police think they are the only ones who have a "right" to shoot at other humans.

Be polite with the police.

Give them only name, rank, serial number.

Find a criminal defense attorney.

This is going to cost you. You were aware of that when you strapped on that pistol.

Your firearm will be seized. You will have to jump through hoops to get it back.

Some folks here say to carry a cheap pistol in the event you shoot someone.

That way, when your pistol is seized, it's no big deal.

I say BS. Carry something that works well, and works for you.

Do not make any statements, oral, or written.

Tell the cops you will be happy to talk with them, after you lawyer up.

You may be cuffed up, and jailed.

Not a fun thing to do.

Jail sucks.

The cops want you to talk.

They want as many people in the system as they can get.

That is what they do.

Protect yourself.

Excellent Advice but you forgot about the recording equipment in the police car or van.I had a crooked Chief of police try this one on me. So I talked about his car, the weather, his G.P.S. system, and every time he tried to get me to talk about what happened I changed the subject on him. Keep your mouth shut! Anything you say can and will be used against you, and it is always used against you.

 

[joemendoza]

Yes, and one more thing I learned at my CCL class, which was taught by a guy who is a police dispatcher. I had never though about this: when you are talking to them , it's like you are talking to the chief of police. So if they tell you to do something and you don't do it, then you can get in trouble. He advised to just give them the basics -- where you are, what happened, then HANG UP. Their job is to keep you on the phone as long as they can, which I suppose can be useful sometimes. You want a recording of the BG bashing in your door -- but not much else!

 

[angrypenguin]

take pictures? Why not?

Don't touch anything.

When you call 911, becareful of what you say.

Remember, channel 5 news will play it on air.

A jury may hear the recording.

Remember, the police are not your friends.

You have used a firearm in self defense.

Some of the police think they are the only ones who have a "right" to shoot at other humans.

Be polite with the police.

Give them only name, rank, serial number.

Find a criminal defense attorney.

This is going to cost you. You were aware of that when you strapped on that pistol.

Your firearm will be seized. You will have to jump through hoops to get it back.

Some folks here say to carry a cheap pistol in the event you shoot someone.

That way, when your pistol is seized, it's no big deal.

I say bs. Carry something that works well, and works for you.

Do not make any statements, oral, or written.

Tell the cops you will be happy to talk with them, after you lawyer up.

You may be cuffed up, and jailed.

Not a fun thing to do.

Jail sucks.

The cops want you to talk.

They want as many people in the system as they can get.

That is what they do.

Protect yourself.

good post!