Ethical question

[Danno]

I ask this question, not wanting to tick anyone off, but it's one that I feel should be asked, so:

I think we all consider ourselves as being a Good Guy vs a Bad Guy. That being said, GG follow the law, obey the rules - BG's don't - right?

Ok, here is my question / concern. I had only been a member of this forum for a short time, and value the insight I have received. That being said, I have read where several people say that they would carry in places that don't allow concealed weapons - such as at work, at the mall, or in some states, in someone's house with out their permission.

I understand that there are places that may now allow to carry, but not post the proper signs etc, but as far as being ethical - if you KNOW you are not supposed to carry in a certain place, and you do it anyway, you are breaking the law, and if caught, possibly prosecuted, and then your 2nd Amendment right is gone. Does this make you a BG?

I'm sure I will carry someday in a place that I'm not supposed to - I just hope that it is a mistake, and not a decision to break the law.

Again, I really, really, really am not trying to tick anyone off - Just wanted to raise the question.

 

[HK4U]

I don't think so. I think you have to take it case by case. Is the place that is restricted somewhere you have to go. If you have to do you feel that your life is in danger if you do not carry. Life is full of choices and we need to make wise choices. Again I do follow the guide line that it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. In other words is it better to be dead and follow the law or perhaps break the law and stay alive. Only you can answer that for youself. No one else can.

 

[Danno]

In other words is it better to be dead and follow the law or perhaps break the law and stay alive.

I agree with this statement, but I also try to avoid places that I would feel that I, or my family might be in danger. Exception to this is the Mall. I hate going to the mall - one just because I don't like it, but two, this is a place for idiots that want to go out with a bang are going to do it... I dread the day that my kids are teens, and want to go to the mall to hang out...

I'm not condoning anyone for carrying anywhere that they feel in danger. I do question people, for example, that carry in places that are not dangerous, but CW are not allowed, despite the law/rules.

 

[GeneticsDave]

I do question people, for example, that carry in places that are not dangerous, but CW are not allowed, despite the law/rules.

I personally don't think there are any places that 'are not dangerous'. I think it wise to avoid places that I know to be dangerous, but you can't ever get into the habit of thinking you are safe anywhere. Killings happen on the road, in churches, and even in the sanctuaries we call 'home'. To be truly committed to the ideals this country stands for, we need to be ready and able to defend ourselves wherever we may be. Granted there are places where guns are illegal (federal buildings, secure airport zones, etc.), but most of the other places have POLICIES against carrying a weapon and these (see your local gun laws) do NOT carry the weight of the law. I would much rather violate a policy than be defenseless when faced with danger.

To each their own, but your life and the lives of your loved ones may depend on your decisions.

 

[ronwill]

Have you ever told a little white lie because you thought it would protect the feelings of someone? While I can't say that I have carried anywhere illegal, if I did it would be a little white lie.

 

[Ektarr]

Please forgive me for coming across like a raging paranoid*, but I have to tell you a story. A couple of 'em, actually...

A. I'm in New Jersey. 'Nuff said.

B. I carry around the house, because it's the only truly legal way I CAN here in Иєш Лєяжşєşŧăŋ, and I opt to exercise what few Rights I have left in this repressive regime. While the town I live in is very, Very, VERY safe (they close Police Hdqtrs on the weekends. A few of our Cops patrol but they're dispatched from the neighboring town), we did have a push-in assault at knifepoint here in a neighboring town last week, and there was an in-home assault/attempted rape in this town late last year. I carry at home.

C. I'm home lately convalescing from minor surgery, ergo, I'm carrying. Yesterday P and I had to go out for a couple of light errands. We were halfway there when I realized I still had the Kimber on my hip! It had become so comfortable and familiar that I completely forgot I was wearing it! (No, we didn't turn around. We finished our business with care and then went home.)

Point is, even if you were totally inclined to respect every letter of the law, there's always the possibility of an error that would put you someplace you shouldn't be while carrying. It's been in the news, too: this or that celebrity or Politico caught at the airport, for example, with his sidearm in his bag. It can happen to anyone, and I think the bottom line is that IF you're truly a GG, the hit - both Legal and emotional! - should be minimal for the oversight.

*Paranoid: 2 points...

1. Just because you're Paranoid doesn't meant they're not really out to get you.

2. If you think everyone is out to get you, you're Paranoid...

If you think NO one's out to get you...you're crazy!​

 

[Danno]

Granted there are places where guns are illegal (federal buildings, secure airport zones, etc.), but most of the other places have POLICIES against carrying a weapon and these (see your local gun laws) do NOT carry the weight of the law.

That is an excellent point, and you may have just changed the way I look at this. I guess I was putting policy in the same pot as law. I guess it's like smoking in a non smoking building... I don't smoke, but there are policies from various business that I have broken in the past because it went against my better judgment.

Another question though - if the business policy is no carry, and they DO have the sign posted as per the laws of that state, would you carry there?

Example - I was a Goodyear this morning, and they have a large 8" square sign on the door with a "No" sign over a gun - I don't have my permit yet, but if I did, I would have been carrying this morning, so I would either had to carry in a non-legal manner, or stand outside in 35 deg weather...

So, thank you Dave - you've just changed my 1/2 my mind!

 

[Ektarr]

if I did, I would have been carrying this morning, so I would either had to carry in a non-legal manner, or stand outside in 35 deg weather...

...or find another place to spend your hard-earned money instead of with a vendor who has no respect for your Constitutional Rights!

 

[DrDavidM]

I will not carry in a place that is legally posted no carry. While I am always concerned about my safety, I am equally concerned about losing my permit. I do risk my life by not carrying in certain places because they have chosen to make it a gun free zone. However, I would be risking my life going anywhere if I lose my permit altogether. Now, if it is a company policy, etc I have to weigh every situation to decide. (as long as it carries no weight of the law.) Is it worth losing my job over? It all depends on how important that job is. Is it worth losing a club membership? It all depends.

 

[The Gunny]

...or find another place to spend your hard-earned money instead of with a vendor who has no respect for your Constitutional Rights!

EXCELLENT POINT!!

You took the words right out of my mouth. Then I might even go back or call and speak to the manager. I would inform him that I just bought a complete set of tires at your competitor down the street and do you want to know why I didn't buy from you? Because of that little sign you have out front. I bet if more people did that and they knew it would affect business they might be inclined to remove it.

 

[GeneticsDave]

Well, I am glad something I said made sense - sometimes I feel that I ramble.

I agree with the previous posts. If the business (shopping center, etc) has a sign there are two things to consider: 1. Does this sign carry the weight of the law in your state (some states it does, other's it's just trespassing if you are caught AND refuse to leave)? 2. Do you really need to shop here or should you consider a competitor and let the management know that you are displeased with their view on legal gun owners and your right to defend yourself AND their customers - I see having a concealed permit holder in a store as advantageous for the company rather than a liability. I would explain to them that all signs in 'gun free zones' (Virginia Tech, Trolley Square, etc) do it attract violence and that I am willing to take my business and the business of everyone I talk to elsewhere.

If it is your work, you have a different dilemma. I personally believe that my life is more important than ANY company policy, and if I, at some time in the future, am fired for such an infraction, I would gladly voice my displeasure with the media regarding the refusal of my employer to grant me the right to defend myself and then find a job elsewhere. You can get another job, you can't get another life.

As for fear, I remember you mentioning the mall. Yes, there are places that are more susceptible to mass violence (areas of congregation), but I think we ought to be careful not to live our lives in fear. I'm not coming down on you or anyone else, this is just my personal opinion. I think we should continue to live our lives the way we did before we carried our firearms - only with a heightened state of awareness (live in condition yellow). There is no need to live in fear, it will only destroy you and your happiness. What we should do is prepare for disaster and train so that when the floods come, when the earthquakes hit or when the crazies start shooting... we will know what to do and have the means to survive. That is my personal opinion and reasoning for carrying everywhere I am - including inside my home. I obey the laws, but I tend to have a "don't ask, don't tell" view towards policies.

I hope that cleared up some of what you asked me, if not, please rephrase and I will give it another go I hope you get your permit soon, you'll be a great asset to those around you!

 

[Danno]

I hope that cleared up some of what you asked me, if not, please rephrase and I will give it another go I hope you get your permit soon, you'll be a great asset to those around you!

Thanks again, and I hope to get it soon too - I need to get a carry gun too, but I have some debt I need to get paid off first. Until then, I carry at home, and in the car - SC allows me to carry in the console / glove box of the vehicle. so I'm 1/2 there now...

 

[Brainchild]

For the most part,I obey the laws.I don't carry in a place that has the 51% sign out front,I don't carry in the court house,etc.I don't carry in hospitals because it is not legal,and I think that sucks big time,because that puts me at the mercy of any BG that wants to come in there and start making a point.And we all know that the police won't get there in time to stop him and when they DO get there,they won't be able to do much except dragg the bodies out and make a report,but that's the law.I thank God that I don't need to go to the hospital or the court house very often.As for business establishments,I will either take my business elsewhere,or simply not go to that kind of business.I do stray from the 'legal' path from time to time.It is,I believe,illegal to carry in a church in the state of Texas.I will not stop going to church just because some idiot in the legislature thinks I shouldn't pack there.I also will not forget that bad things have happened in churches.I deliberately carried in church before.I wanted to(and in reallity NEEDED to)hear the sermon,but I refused to be unarmed,leaving myself and my family unprotected.I will deliberately carry in church again.Sometimes,to my way of thinking,I feel like I have to disregard what is legal and illegal and concentrate on what's right and wrong.I have not forgotten about ethics.I feel that I have no ethical dilema,because I feel that I am behaving ethically.I am a GG,not a BG because I do not harm or threaten to harm,or harass anyone.Remember the Holocaust?The slaughters in the former Soviet Union and Communist China?We feel like thay were BG's.They were all following the law,weren't they?
I am NOT suggesting that you break the law or policies where you are.This is just the way I feel.You do what's best for you and your family.

 

[ecocks]

So

...or find another place to spend your hard-earned money instead of with a vendor who has no respect for your Constitutional Rights!

VOTE with your dollars! Do not support those businesses or environments that post or have policies against firearms. AND LET THEM KNOW IT! If you don't, they simply assume it is fine and not costing them any business.

 

[JBB]

I would never carry in a place that is unquestionably illegal to do so. Having said that, however, I have and will carry in violation of my company's policy if I feel that my well being outweighs the violation of a policy. I would rather be looking for another job than the alternative if I needed my gun and it wasn't with me. Also, there is no such thing as a "safe place" these days.

 

[Scarecrow]

EXCELLENT POINT!!

You took the words right out of my mouth. Then I might even go back or call and speak to the manager. I would inform him that I just bought a complete set of tires at your competitor down the street and do you want to know why I didn't buy from you? Because of that little sign you have out front. I bet if more people did that and they knew it would affect business they might be inclined to remove it.

I love this idea. people need to know that even though they may not like it, other people have their rights too. also maybe let them know that the "no gun" sign is pretty much a "welcome" sign for the bg because the bg knows at that point that 1. the cops are not fast enough most of the time. and 2. no one in that place of business is going to be able to stop him. get rid of the sign and keep the bg guessing.

anyone like Bill Engvall? I'll give you a sign. put it around your neck, it says "I'm stupid"..... "here's your sign".

 

[skipjack_1st]

USCCA, (and others) have come up with a little card, the size of a business card. It features a no gun sign = no $ sign. A little text below it clarifies it for those unable to figure it out.

A neat idea for just handing the card to management and then going elsewhere.

 

[Glock Fan]

I like the card idea. I think I'll take it with me the next time I'm on the road. Too bad we don't have CC here in Hawaii. Now that I've heard that Goodyear is "anti", I'll continue to take my vehicles to Firestone and spread the word among my fellow 2A buddies.


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