Duty to retreat?

C

ClearSightTactical

New member
For conversational purposes only:

Assume you live in a state which says something along the lines of "assailed person need not retreat he(or she) may stand his (or her) ground and defend him(her)self"

How literally do you take that?

I live in a state which says I have NO duty to retreat.

Call me a coward but if I were in imminent jeopardy of death or great bodily harm I would RUN LIKE HELL (IF POSSIBLE)

Why run? The law says I can stand my ground and defend myself.

I'd run because I:

1. Honestly do NOT want to ever shoot anyone.
2. Would like to avoid being treated like a criminal.
3. Would like to avoid spending 10's or 100's of thousands defending in court.
4. Would like to avoid risking my freedom and my life with my family.
5. If running didn't work I can say I tried to get away and my use of force was truly a LAST RESORT.


So - would you run or stand your ground?
 
Hey ClearSight: You are 100% right on in your very truthful comments. I absolutely agree. A great many of your potential naysayers, while sitting at their computers being the next Dirty Harry, will disagree--let them have at it and just ignore their comments. Odds are (I would hope) none of us will have to put our written comments to practical use in the real world, but those that disagree with you may very well find themselves in your numbers 2-4 or even worse--dead. I'm sure we have some "pros" out there and probably a lot of "wannabe pros" and I salute their commitments, but I'm with you Clear. Have a safe and healthy New Year and God Bless.
 
There is a big difference between the legal requirement to retreat and the common sense duty to retreat. Your reasoning is perfectly clear and correct and I hope the "Dirty Harry Wannabe's" listen. There is a difference between finding a BG in your home threatening your life and someone knocking at your door at 2am. There are no clear cut definitions although some want to think there is of when you can shoot and when you can't. There is a lot of grey area and there is where all the discussion, arguments, court costs etc. get involved.
 
As I have said several times before with simalar questions, it would honestly depend on the situation at the time, obviously if in your home where exactly are you going to run to? if you are armed and are able drill, the sonsabitches, they have no buiness there except to do you or yours harm, but if in a puplic setting, eatery, movies, store, or whatever, the situation at the time would determin weather I would run or shoot, weather there is a law to retreat or not
 
This must depend on the situation. There is nothing "Dirty Harry" about it.

Trying to retreat could potentially put you in graver danger when simply standing your ground might have saved your life.

-Doc
 
Bighouse Doc said:
This must depend on the situation. There is nothing "Dirty Harry" about it.

Trying to retreat could potentially put you in graver danger when simply standing your ground might have saved your life.

-Doc
Click to expand...

+1 Doc

ClearSight, what's to say the BG doesn't bust you in the back as you're fleeing?

As for the Dirty Harry mantra.........it's getting old that those that choose to stand their ground and intervene are accused of being some type of wannabe. The whole idea of a well armed society is to intervene "When Necessary". You the individual make that call. For those that don't see it that way fine but don't label someone because you don't see it their way. Leave the Playground retort on another web site. Also Dirty Harry was an LEO, you know, with a badge. If you want to name call try Paul Kersey.............Charles Bronson, Death Wish Series.

I refer all to the "Would you Help a LEO" thread. A lot of comments that have been posted are unbelievable, just plain vitriolic. I really never thought I'd see the day that people like that would openly spew such defecation.
 
Bighouse Doc said:
This must depend on the situation. There is nothing "Dirty Harry" about it.

Trying to retreat could potentially put you in graver danger when simply standing your ground might have saved your life.

-Doc
Click to expand...

Agree 100% that it depends on the situation. Take the case that I have seen posted many times that you find someone beating on your front door at 2am. What do you do and you better believe that is a complicated situation that depends on a thousand facts at least. However I have seen too many who start with immediately that it is OK to shoot through the door and that is what they would do. Also too many tell that if they found someone in their house they would shoot first and ask questions later. I agree that the "Dirty Harry" reference is getting old but it is also too much in play for some people or at least some version of it. Every point being made in this post has a legitimate basis and the best one is it depends on the situation. Sometimes run, sometimes stand and fight and sometimes fight before you have to stand. The media likes to call the Castle Doctrine the Shoot First law and unfortunately that too many think that is really is that. Your number one weapon in any case is that thing located between your ears. Use it before you use your other weapons.
 
That question is a good one that does not have any one answer. Its like asking how deep does the rabbit hole go?
 
ClearSightTactical said:
Call me a coward but if I were in imminent jeopardy of death or great bodily harm I would RUN LIKE HELL (IF POSSIBLE)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the responses, just feeling the water of fellow site users. Of course everything would be very dependent on the situation. As DOC said you may be risking your life further by trying to run- no way in hell i'd turn my back on an attacker armed with a firearm..

Just saying as a general rule if I can run away I will- wanted to see if others had the same philosophy.
 
Depends on the circumstances.

If my wife and kids are in bed or unable to retreat, you can bet I'm gonna stand my ground.

If no other good reason to stand my ground, I'm going to retreat if possible. The old saying "Desecration is the better point of valor." still holds true. Besides, being shot HURTS!!!
 
Pokey said:
If I have an out.....I am gonna take it, otherwise my ground will be stood "for sure".
Click to expand...

I agree with Pokey and hope there is a way out. I have a problem in that I am not physically able to run away. I don't want to hurt anyone but carry a gun for the protection of myself and family. If all else fails, I see no recourse other than to use the gun. Without a doubt, in today's society, there will be ramifications but my family will be alive. I am not a "Dirty Harry" but neither am I a "Barney Fife." I am somewhere comfortably in-between and, without hesitation, will shoot some BG who didn't know to leave well enough alone.
 
Greetings. I'm new on this forum, so I hope this is appropriate. Although I've been shooting for more than 40 years, a 3 year stint in the US Army with a whole lot of shooting, I'd run if at all possible. I've only had a CCW a little less than a year, and I do carry concealed.
I also have no doubt that I would defend myself if absolutely necessary.
I worry about younger people who have never seen real blood and guts, and what bullets can do to the human body.
All in my opinion of course.
Again, no offense to anyone.
 
HDB said:
Greetings. I'm new on this forum, so I hope this is appropriate. Although I've been shooting for more than 40 years, a 3 year stint in the US Army with a whole lot of shooting, I'd run if at all possible. I've only had a CCW a little less than a year, and I do carry concealed.
I also have no doubt that I would defend myself if absolutely necessary.
I worry about younger people who have never seen real blood and guts, and what bullets can do to the human body. All in my opinion of course.
Again, no offense to anyone.
Click to expand...

I am with you on that and I too am concerned about the ones who have seen too much TV where with the good guys it seems to always be only a wound or in the video games where all you have to do is hit the reset button and start over. There was a case here locally where three young boys decided to act out a video game by killing a man and stuffing him in the walls of an abandoned building. Not every gamer will act out on what they play but enough do to be concerned about it.
 
Where I live (SD) if someone is in your house at 2 am, he is already committing a felony, as such you are free to ventilate the perp. And as I have said before more of you need to push for an assumption of risk statute in your state.

In my case if the perp is in my house at 2 am (thus committing a felony)
I am free to terminate his chosen career. If the perps family attempts to sue me for terminating their "special" child they will end up with nothing but paying my legal bills.
 
Oldgrunt said:
I agree with Pokey and hope there is a way out. I have a problem in that I am not physically able to run away. I don't want to hurt anyone but carry a gun for the protection of myself and family. If all else fails, I see no recourse other than to use the gun. Without a doubt, in today's society, there will be ramifications but my family will be alive. I am not a "Dirty Harry" but neither am I a "Barney Fife." I am somewhere comfortably in-between and, without hesitation, will shoot some BG who didn't know to leave well enough alone.
Click to expand...

+1
I can't run and I can't fight, so I'll shoot if I don't have a viable alternative.
 
Nice theory, assuming you'd have the luxury of contemplating the threat, risk factor, alternatives, yada yada. Twice I have put my hand on my pistol when I thought I was in immediate danger. Neither time did I draw it. It was a reflex, not something I had any time to consider. One time I was being approached by a dangerous looking person with his hand inside his jacket CLEARLY contemplating drawing a gun, OR attempting to intimidate me by creating the illusion that he was about to draw a non existing gun, at which point I leveled an unloaded 12 Ga. out my car window causing him to retreat and I made an escape.

I think that most of my real world gun skills come from martial arts training and not from gun training except of course for operating them. It was when I realized I was getting too old to be a serious threat with open hand I began carrying. Work smarter, not harder I always say.

That's not to say I can't still handle myself. :biggrin: The last time I had to get physical I was protecting a woman from a relative going mid evil on her. All I was thinking was to eliminate the threat, but I already had the guy in an arm lock and by the back of the neck, and off balance. It was instinctive to keep him off balance until I could think of how to neutralize his hostility, and I wound up spinning him completely around in a big circle twice when I spotted the bathroom door which I KNEW was always left ajar. My mind said "Throw him through the door and slam it shut and hold him locked in there til he cools down. Of course... it had to be the ONE time that door was shut and latched, and the guys nose exploded like a ripe tomato when his face hit the door. Somehow I ended up being the bad guy.

I contend there's no answer to the question posed and you can contemplate your actions til eternity but will never know til the time comes.
 
Yes. So many variables. Living in a weak castle doctrine state (for now, welcoming a gun-friendly governor in 2011), I hear about family members of drug thugs suing police departments because their loved one, who shot and killed a police officer (Patrick McDonald), was himself shot and killed by the officer's partner. But that was Philadelphia, where the media views castle doctrine as "Shoot first, ask questions later," which is about as far from the truth as you get. What the media will do to scare the populace...

Recently, my local pharmacy was robbed, with "bad guy" wielding a handgun. I have no local police force, which the bad guys are also aware of. Kind of like those annoying and dangerous "Guns prohibited" signs. Nothing like inviting trouble...

I think through the scenario: What if I was one of the people there who were told to lay down on the floor and gunpoint? Do I shoot? Legally, even in Pennsylvania, that would be considered mortal danger. But I may not have a good shot at him before he has one at me. And his family members, who would probably say it was not his fault because if his addiction disease (he stole opiate medication) and civilly sue me for stopping their circumstantial "loved one." I doubt I would see the firearm I was carrying for a long time, if at all. Is some trial lawyer going to say I refused to retreat? We are not always in situations where we can rely on witnesses to back up our actions. No one was injured, so it is a scenario that raises many quiestions beyond what I mentioned.
 
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