Do firearm training schools recommend open cary?

[ClearSightTactical]

Problem with the "deterent" arguement is that it assumes the BG is 1) Intelligent, 2) Not spaced out on drugs, or 3) just an unmotivated casual crook.

Path of least resistance.

 

[Mainsail]

In my opinion (and experience) CC is better for the tactical advantage. Chances are, if you are OCing and the bad guy comes in, your gonna be the first one he whacks.

There's just as much a chance he'll whack you either way. History and every study I've ever read says, however, that criminals will avoid attacking someone they know to be armed. Concealed is great, but casual observation by a mugger says you're an easier target than the guy packing the .45 on his belt in the open. What is your experience specifically?

You won't be in the fighgt casue you're gonna get geased before you even know the fight is on.

But I don't want to be in the fight! I don't want to prevail against an attacker, I prefer to avoid the entire situation. If the mugger selects you and puts a gun up to your or your wife/child/friend's head, what are you going to do, wait until he's leaving and shoot him then? Count your wife/child/friend as an acceptable loss, draw and shoot? Say he drops his pistol on the ground- you draw and fire as he's trying to pick it up; will your wife not be traumatized by seeing his head popped like a grape? What about your child? Will their life be better, the same, or worse for having witnessed a man being shot to death? Even if the DA says the killing was 100% justified, can you and your family afford the civil suit that may follow? What if the 'gun' you thought you saw was just his cell phone and he claims you were trying to rob him? Can you afford the legal fees that will follow?

I can understand the "deterent" argument where you say the BG is gonna go somewhere else if he sees an armed citizen, but the fact is that most BGs don't think logically to begin with. If they did, they'd make a different career choice. I remember the incident of the crook who hijacked the plane demanding to go to South America, then he murdered the pilot. Now how was he going to get to S.A. with nobody to fly the plane?

There's a lot more to the whole equation than simply logic. Logic, intelligence, desperation, lifestyle, cleverness... it all applies. The BG may not be smart by intellectual standards, but he's probably got street smarts far superior to yours. He thinks he's far more clever than you, and he's not afraid to try to prove it.

Maybe a casual crook would be detered, but a career ex-con, gangbanger won't give a rats ass to begin with if you're armed.

Problem with the "deterent" arguement is that it assumes the BG is 1) Intelligent, 2) Not spaced out on drugs, or 3) just an unmotivated casual crook.

Don't forget, just because you might think the guy (or girl) is a waste of flesh, that isn't how he views himself. His sense of self preservation is every bit as strong as your own. In all likelihood, he thinks YOUR sense of self preservation is inferior to his, because for all he can see, you took no steps to protect yourself.

The crime didn't originate the moment the BG drew on you, it began when he conceived of the plan (step 1), than he interviewed you (step 2) and decided you were an acceptable risk, then he positioned himself for the attack and attacked (step 3 and 4). Open carry can deter the threat way back in step 2 or 3. With concealed carry if it gets to step 4, the attack, your only options are to comply and hope for the best, or react and hope for the best.

I think firearms carry is good for society; the good guys and girls should be armed. How you carry is (in some places anyway) your choice. I prefer open carry because I don't want to ever be in a situation where I'll have to shoot someone. I certainly will, if that's my only choice, but I prefer not to. There are moral and legal implications to using deadly force. Sometimes in one's quest to appear tough and strong, we forget what we're really talking about. Not all BGs are human waste, some are just kids that are making their first mistake. If your desire is to kill someone, and be a hero for doing so, concealed carry certainly gives you a much better chance of realizing your dream. In the real world it's not so black and white, there are innumerable shades of gray in there.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I recently queried the range master I've come to know a bit at Front Sight about OC v. CC. He is a retired corrections officer (spent most of his 30 years in max security prisons). His viewpoint was CC was the way to go. I argued the advantages of OC, as I saw them (focusing basically on the deterrent effect) but his focus was on the "criminal mind" and noted that we make a mistake in assuming that "they" think like "us". He noted that hard-core BGs are not phased at all by the average OC civilian and wouldn't hesitate to just blow 'em away. His bottom-line was that OC civilians are just setting themselves up for being the first one shot.

FWIW.

Did he interview the felons in prison? Because what he said and what the actual felons said are two different stories:

Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Social Institutions and Social Change)~ Peter H. Rossi (Author), James Wright (Author)

Interviewing felony prisoners in ten state correctional systems in 1981, Wright and Rossi found extensive information suggesting that gun control laws have relatively little effect on violent criminals. For example, only 12% of criminals, and only 7% of the criminals specializing in handgun crime, had acquired their last crime handgun at a gun store. Of those, about a quarter had stolen the gun from a store; a large number of the rest, Wright and Rossi suggested, had probably procured the gun through a legal surrogate buyer, such as a girlfriend with a clean record. Fifty-six percent of the prisoners said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Seventy-four percent agreed with the statement that "One reason burglars avoid houses where people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." Thirty-nine percent of the felons had personally decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun, and eight percent said the experience had occurred "many times." Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

The "element of surprise" MIGHT benefit you AFTER the attack has begun. Visible deterrence, by felons' own statements, has a better chance at keeping you from being attacked in the first place.

Has anyone ever actually heard of a case of a mentally ill person shooting a person because they saw that person was carrying a gun and their mental illness caused them to shoot? I think a person has a greater chance of getting killed by a stray bullet at midnight on New Year's Eve, so we should all wear Kevlar helmets at that point in time.
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I will admit, that is absolutely the most creative anti-open carry argument I have ever heard, though.

 

[gordie68]

I have heard the argument that OCing makes you a target many times. I always reply with the challenge to show me a case where an average person who was OCing (not security or LE personell) was singled out for attack. I have never had anyone show a legitimate case of such.

Every case that I have ever heard of, that sounded like it would qualify, later turned out to be made up, or the person was involved with some type of criminal activity, or was a case of someone just looking for trouble, which caused the encounter.

The reason that LE and security personell are excluded is that it is thier job which primarily makes them a target of the criminal element, not random encounters.

Another point to ponder, if CC is superior to OC in a tactical sense, why do LEOs primarily OC?

 

[tcox4freedom]

I'm for law-abiding American citizens having the right to choose how or if they carry. I personally am not comfortable with open carry FOR ME in populated places; I'm comfortable with concealed. That's what works for me, now, but that could change.
I would like us all to have freedom of choice on this and everything else that does not directly infringe on the rights of others.
One sad part of the state of our culture now is that we have to fear opinions influencing or inspiring laws that erode or take away our rights. What we say truly may be used against us. :cray:

Sorry to get political and crabby. Anybody want any cheese with that whine!

^^^I agree^^^

Besides if CC is such a GREAT advantage, how come LEO's open carry unless they are in plain clothes or UC.

I just read the previous TWO posts. They took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[HK4U]

I have heard the argument that OCing makes you a target many times. I always reply with the challenge to show me a case where an average person who was OCing (not security or LE personell) was singled out for attack. I have never had anyone show a legitimate case of such.

Every case that I have ever heard of, that sounded like it would qualify, later turned out to be made up, or the person was involved with some type of criminal activity, or was a case of someone just looking for trouble, which caused the encounter.

The reason that LE and security personell are excluded is that it is thier job which primarily makes them a target of the criminal element, not random encounters.

Another point to ponder, if CC is superior to OC in a tactical sense, why do LEOs primarily OC?

Another point to ponder, if CC is superior to OC in a tactical sense, why do LEOs primarily OC?

If you are referring to when they are on duty then the uniform would negate the tactical advantage of CC so what would be the point? If they are off duty most officers I know carry CC even though they could wear the badge and carry OC. Most I know do not want to advertise to the world when off duty that they are LEO or that they are carrying.

 

[RevJimII]

All good points and I apologize to everyone if I seemed smug as some have suggested. Here is what I believe regarding open carry. It presents potential problems that are unnecessary, and tactically, I want to reduce the number of factors that I have to consider when carrying a firearm. However I also have found that proponents of open carry either are willing to accept these increased risk factors, just be aware of them and try to increase their levels of awareness, ignore them, or deny-minimize them. The courts take the view that decisions we make have to be in line with the doctrine of "the reasonable man". Open carry has not been judged to be unreasonable in some jurisdictions. I can only speak for me in that open carry presents a risk I do not choose to take. In the mid to late 1970's large state hospitals begin discharging people back into the community. Therefore larger numbers of disturbed untreated people are on the streets. An exposed firearm can be an invitation to either a suicidal or homocidal person to attempt a weapon take-away. The element of surprise offered by concealed carry has absolutely been a factor in prevailing, based on the review of many after-incident reports.

To open, I am a long time OCer here in Oregon and before that lived in California. I OC 100% of the time I carry but plan on adding a permit and concealed bug to my person this spring. We have seen this discussion go back and forth and for the most part kept pretty level and thought out. The only thing I ask from folks who tell me any one of the list of reasons why OC is a bad idea is to show me the data on how often that really happens.. you can what if all day long. I have OCed for a year and a half straight with not a soul forcibly removing my weapon and killing innocent bystanders or a BG targeting me first (and I have been in bad areas). Most of those who are overly paranoid or have issues with authority seem to avoid an armed and aware citizen from what I have been able to discern. I so far see no real evidence that the element of surprise supposedly offered by CC comes into play in my daily OC life. All in all I endorse carrying in any way you can and are comfortable with to defend self and family from harm. Do so safely and vigilantly.

Rev. Jim

p.s. I have noticed most schools do shy away from OC for one reason or another.. which is their choice, the only thing I dislike is the amount of misinformation some of us have had to correct with former students of these classes who have been mislead by instructors who do not know the law.

 

[Unfettered Might]

There are 3 components required of an individual who wants to carry either way;

1) Situational Awareness
Someone taking a firearm from you shouldn't be an issue. Someone targeting you shouldn't be an issue. If your lax on your attentiveness to your surroundings then you shouldn't be carrying to begin with. Never leave your blind spots unattended and look at those around you straight in the eyes, you'll know if someone has ill intent. Most assaults take place in about 3 seconds, do you CCer's think you've got time to "get up to speed"? I would wager that most of you CCer's are in a more relaxed mental state than those of us who OC and a heightened mental state is a tactical advantage. When new people enter my sphere of influence, either through my movements or theirs, I'm already reading their body language.

2) Training
No one here can argue the tactical advantage of CC, but what if you are targeted first anyway? I bet I can get to my drop leg faster than you could reach into your coat. I can fully draw and fire two precise shots in just under 1.25 seconds, because I train for it, a lot. Any of you waist carriers ever practiced shots from the hip? Too many on both sides think it ends at buying the gun or getting the permit, you know who you are. How many of you will fumble for your firearm in a life or death 3 second scenario? You don't go to a range and practice calm, well placed shots. You practice sudden draws, preferably with a shooting partner with a chronograph, audibly signaling you to simulate the unknown initiation of a real event. It's all about muscle memory, you don't want to have to think about the physical actions.

3) Law Familiarity
Know your local laws regarding what you may have to do one day. The difference between freedom and imprisonment ladies and gentlemen.

That being said, carry however you want, there are extenuating circumstances that can apply to negate the advantages on both sides. When it's all said and done we are all just carriers. But if you don't have 1, 2 and 3 under your belt, your just a disaster waiting to happen and that's the real issue that needs to be addressed for quite a few I'm sure.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Your custom Kimber may be just want the BG wants. A lot of LEO's are shot with their own guns, presumably because they're taught to draw them as a last resort and because they are usually hanging right out there for the BG to grab.

 

[Unfettered Might]

More of them die from traffic accidents than gunfire.

 

[tcox4freedom]

Your custom Kimber may be just want the BG wants. A lot of LEO's are shot with their own guns, presumably because they're taught to draw them as a last resort and because they are usually hanging right out there for the BG to grab.

Please show me the statistics of how many officers actually get their own weapons taken away and turned on them.

Also please show me "any" statistics where an OC'r has been targeted by a BG; just so the BG could steal his weapon.

Thanks

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Check out this link.
Law enforcement officers feloniously killed. - Free Online Library
Of 41 officers slain 4 were killed with their own weapons. That's 10%. Not a negligble amount.
I don't know of any source for the other but it stands to reason - BGs often target gun stores and homes because of the weapons they can get there.

 

[tcox4freedom]

Check out this link.
Law enforcement officers feloniously killed. - Free Online Library
Of 41 officers slain 4 were killed with their own weapons. That's 10%. Not a negligble amount.
I don't know of any source for the other but it stands to reason - BGs often target gun stores and homes because of the weapons they can get there.

But, I'll bet you NOT a single one was targeted because of their weapon. All of these took place during "other" stops or apprehensions.

Show me "ONE" badguy-vs-cop or badguy-vs-civilian where the cop or civilian was tageted because they were OC'ing.

Sorry; It just doesn't happen; no matter what you may have been told.

 

[AvidshooterTX]

No, I'm not saying that they cops were targeted for their guns. But they were killed with their own guns and someone who's not afraid to kill a cop is going to be less inclined to worry about a civilian. After a few years of open carry I'm sure we'll have some stats.

 

[bookum danno]

OC Vs CC

No one has mentioned the restrictions placed on OC by local municipalities. Even though OC may be legal in the State, some cities will violate you for OC. One example is "disorderly conduct". Such can be and is charged for OC as OC obviously causes anxiety, nervousness, etc among the general public. The average citizen seeing an exposed weapon on someone who is not wearing a badge and/or a uniform is disarmed. I've known of CC permit holders being reported when their weapon was inadvertently exposed, even briefly.

 

[Unfettered Might]

No one has mentioned the restrictions placed on OC by local municipalities. Even though OC may be legal in the State, some cities will violate you for OC. One example is "disorderly conduct". Such can be and is charged for OC as OC obviously causes anxiety, nervousness, etc among the general public. The average citizen seeing an exposed weapon on someone who is not wearing a badge and/or a uniform is disarmed. I've known of CC permit holders being reported when their weapon was inadvertently exposed, even briefly.

Yay for preemption laws!!

 

[yale]

Even though OC may be legal in the State, some cities will violate you for OC. One example is "disorderly conduct". Such can be and is charged for OC as OC obviously causes anxiety, nervousness, etc among the general public.

Not in Louisiana. Open Carry here is not reason for a Disorderly Conduct charge.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

No one has mentioned the restrictions placed on OC by local municipalities. Even though OC may be legal in the State, some cities will violate you for OC.

No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms.

New Mexico State Constitution

 

[RevJimII]

No one has mentioned the restrictions placed on OC by local municipalities. Even though OC may be legal in the State, some cities will violate you for OC. One example is "disorderly conduct". Such can be and is charged for OC as OC obviously causes anxiety, nervousness, etc among the general public. The average citizen seeing an exposed weapon on someone who is not wearing a badge and/or a uniform is disarmed. I've known of CC permit holders being reported when their weapon was inadvertently exposed, even briefly.

I have 7 cities in my state that will restrict the loaded aspect of OC, but still can't make a DC charge stick without a real fight.This is why I carry a digital recorder. With a CC permit, we also have preemption.

 

[kengrubb]

Officer felonious slain between 1999 and 2008, 530.

Of those 530, 44 were killed with their own weapon, including one killed with a baton in 2003.

Overall 8.3% over time. Low of 2% and a high of 21% in any given year.

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Yes, 8.3% is a lot, but remember that a police officers job demands that he or she put themselves into harms way in a number of situations where private citizens would be compelled to retreat, be a good witness, or do nothing.

There are way more officers killed each year in traffic accidents than get killed with their own weapon.