Defense of a third party

Satch

New member
So I was watching cops and this lady was talking about how this guy was trying to rob her and her husband. They were elderly and when the man said he had no money the guy started to beat him. He was kicking him from what the lady was saying and she said if she did not do anything he might beat him to death. Now my question is this. I wonder a lot about this kind of stuff. Are you allowed by law (I have a CCW ) or maybe ever required to help this guy and use deadly force if he does not stop after maybe you warn him? Or if he comes after you? Now I do not think he had a weapon but this was an old man. This may or may not ever happen but just wondering. I live in Oregon if that helps.

Thanks
 
You may have a moral duty to step in, however, there may be legal ramifications because you interjected yourself into the situation. You may not be justified if you use deadly force. You have to read the state self defense laws and understand them.
 
be very very wary of getting involved with deadly force in any altercations that you randomly come upon. you will not know what is happening, who is the good guy who is the bad guy and you also run the risk of one of their confederates attacking you. if you happen to shoot someone and it turns out that you shot a good guy you could be in for a world of problems that will ruin your life.
remember, you are just a normal citizen who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, you are not a leo, you are not a super hero who is going to stand up for the oppressed, the weak or the innocent, you are just an average joe.
I know that some will call me selfish and maybe they are correct, but I live a comfortable life and I am not risking it to protect others who are involved in things that I know nothing about
 
To answer the OP, in my state, you would be justified under the law. Almost airtight if the lady backed your story. But you really better be sure that the people involved thought their life was in danger. What you thought does not really matter at that point. If you come accross some scumbag beating up a woman and you take him out, you had better hope the woman wasn't his old lady who tells the cops "he wouldn't kill me. He always does this but never really hurts me." In that case, you are probably going to do some time.
 
From what the CHL class instructor said when I took my Oregon class, regardless of whether he has a weapon or not, if you feel yours or some else's life is in danger, or feel the attacker could do "serious bodily harm" (i.e. you'd leave the scene in an ambulance) you are justified under Oregon law to use deadly force. Now as always, terms like "serious bodily harm" are open to court interpretation but from what I've been told Oregon precedents are pretty set on the definition "leaving the scene in an ambulance"
 
I do not think of myself as a hero or anything. But these are things I think about. I hear these people talk about why do we need to carry and so on. And what better way to answer then to save someone's life. I know things like this may never come up. I just wonder about things like this at times. I appreciate the answers. I am sure I will have more questions about crazy stuff.
 
Aside from opinions here, research and know your State's law on deadly force. Looking for it on an internet forum will get you misinformation and opinions. Start with: handgunlaw.us
Generally it has links to State (.gov) websites where the criminal statutes are amongst others.
 
Aside from opinions here, research and know your State's law on deadly force. Looking for it on an internet forum will get you misinformation and opinions. Start with: handgunlaw.us
Generally it has links to State (.gov) websites where the criminal statutes are amongst others.

I agree. First off you have to know if your state has the Alter Ego Rule, which allows you to act on behalf of someone else who is in IMMINENT DANGER as if that other person is you. Imminent danger is still the percursor to any action, whether it is you directly or a third party. All sounds good on paper unless you enter a situation, do not know for sure how a confrontation started and who are the combatants, and you act on behalf of the person getting the worst of it---you could be wrong in your assumptions, even if they look correct and responsible. The possible scenarios and who is good and who is bad can go far beyond who is getting "whipped" when you intercede. Unless you are essentially 100%, saw it from the getgo, calling 911 or combining with others to intercede w/o your firearm would, IMO, be preferred. In SC if you invoke Alter Ego and you were correct in doing so, you are not liable in any way for the results; that still does not mean you cannot be sued (where there is a lawyer there is a lawsuit). My philosophy is that my CC is for MY protection and that of MY family----I have to be totally and completely convinced of someone else's problem before I am going to draw my firearm and intercede under Alter Ego--it is just too easy to make a mistake when it is not your life that is in the equation.
 
In my state, the use of deadly force applies to you or anyone in your presence as long as there is a reasonable belief of death or great bodily harm. If I were to stumble on a mugging in progress and the victim was someone other than Chuck Lidell, I would be justified in using deadly force if I believed the assault could result in death or injury to the victim. That being said, I'm not comfortable when people tell me things like "I wish you were when that guy robbed our store". Why? I'm not a cop. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna jump in and save your ass. 'm going to assess the situation. Some guy beating up his wife, I might say something, but I'm not going to draw unless the guy becomes a direct threat to me. I'd call the cops, but I'm not so sure I'd draw. If I'm standing in front of the Slurpee machine and some guy comes in and sticks up the 7/11, I've got a tough decision to make. If I shoot the robber, 7/11 will probably sue me for making a mess all over their wall. But given that 7/11 only sells Citgo gas, directly lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of their stores anyway.

I believe there's merit to the concept of the strong protecting the weak. To that end, I probably would do something. Whether it rises to the level of me shooting someone to protect someone I don't know, I can't say what I'd do for sure.
 
In my state, the use of deadly force applies to you or anyone in your presence as long as there is a reasonable belief of death or great bodily harm. If I were to stumble on a mugging in progress and the victim was someone other than Chuck Lidell, I would be justified in using deadly force if I believed the assault could result in death or injury to the victim. That being said, I'm not comfortable when people tell me things like "I wish you were when that guy robbed our store". Why? I'm not a cop. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I'm automatically gonna jump in and save your ass. 'm going to assess the situation. Some guy beating up his wife, I might say something, but I'm not going to draw unless the guy becomes a direct threat to me. I'd call the cops, but I'm not so sure I'd draw. If I'm standing in front of the Slurpee machine and some guy comes in and sticks up the 7/11, I've got a tough decision to make. If I shoot the robber, 7/11 will probably sue me for making a mess all over their wall. But given that 7/11 only sells Citgo gas, directly lining the pockets of Hugo Chavez, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of their stores anyway.

I believe there's merit to the concept of the strong protecting the weak. To that end, I probably would do something. Whether it rises to the level of me shooting someone to protect someone I don't know, I can't say what I'd do for sure.

7/11: Now lining the pockets of dead people.
 
In Texas we could but I have decided to wait on the police for all incidents not involving myself or my immediate family, not from worry over the law but for fear of aiding an anti gun nut that don't want me to have a firearm.
 
Maybe it's just me out there but if I saw some being raped, or physically assaulted, screw the liabilities, I'm helping that person. Whether that involves use of a firearm or not, the situation will dictate. Sorry, but it's the right thing to do and F anybody who tries to tell me otherwise. I have no desire to be superman (aside from the flying bit) but I'm also not about to stand there and watch an innocent person get attacked doing nothing other than calling police. Everybody on here knows 90% of the time police are too late to stop anything.
 
In Idaho I can use deadly force against somebody committing a felony on somebody.
TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 40
HOMICIDE
18-4009. JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE BY ANY PERSON. Homicide is also justifiable
when committed by any person in either of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property or person, against
one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a
felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent,
riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the
purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or
husband, parent, child, master, mistress or servant of such person, when there
is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some
great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished;
but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was
the assailant or engaged in mortal combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed;
or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to
apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any
riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.
 
Maybe it's just me out there but if I saw some being raped, or physically assaulted, screw the liabilities, I'm helping that person. Whether that involves use of a firearm or not, the situation will dictate. Sorry, but it's the right thing to do and F anybody who tries to tell me otherwise. I have no desire to be superman (aside from the flying bit) but I'm also not about to stand there and watch an innocent person get attacked doing nothing other than calling police. Everybody on here knows 90% of the time police are too late to stop anything.

please tell us how you decide whom the innocent party is
 
most state have similar laws, however I will ask the same question again, how do you decide whom the victim is?
God gave me a brain, and Bless His Foresight, He also gave me common sense and a sound mind. I know how to use them.
If it's a rape, how could you not know? If it is an old couple being attacked by some young punk, how could you not know? The situation will dictate what I should do under the circumstances. And I will do what my good common sense and my brain tells me to do. It isn't selfishness. It's right over evil/wrong.
 
god did give you a brain however you seem to have chosen not to use it to it's full capacity.

I can show you many examples on training videos that I've worked with that can show you many common situations that you might encounter and how easy it is to make a tragically bad choice of whom is the attacker and/or whom the one who needs assistance.
sir: I wish that you never are put into a position where you'd need to use a firearm in yours or anyone else's defense and if you do I hope that you choose wisely when you pull that trigger.
 
Maybe it's just me out there but if I saw some being raped, or physically assaulted, screw the liabilities, I'm helping that person. Whether that involves use of a firearm or not, the situation will dictate. Sorry, but it's the right thing to do and F anybody who tries to tell me otherwise. I have no desire to be superman (aside from the flying bit) but I'm also not about to stand there and watch an innocent person get attacked doing nothing other than calling police. Everybody on here knows 90% of the time police are too late to stop anything.
.
There are so many ways for you to get it wrong, catastrophically wrong, that they can’t all possibly be discussed on this forum. You come upon two guys in a fistfight. One is losing, badly, even bloodied up a bit. Are you witnessing a felony? Do you have any idea what happened before? Are you fully trained, tested, and certified on what legally constitutes a felony in your state? Let’s muddy it up a bit. You come upon a little old lady, screeching, and little old man on the ground wrestling with a “thug” and clearly getting the worst of it. You draw your firearm and begin barking commands. Enter armed citizen #2 (or how about a cop?), who comes upon the scene 10 seconds after you. He “sees” “thug” and old man on the ground with another “thug” drawing down on them with a firearm. He elects to draw down on YOU. Now what? How about this: The “thug” is actually the old lady’s son, wrestling away a gun you couldn’t see that had somehow found its way into the old man’s hand (he suffers from dementia)……you just shot her son. Stranger things happen every single day. Even if you watch the entire scenario unfold from the beginning you can still get it completely wrong.
.
Unless you are a trained, sworn, credentialed LEO with jurisdiction to act, you, as a responsible armed citizen, have no duty, warrant, or commission to act. If you inject yourself, with a DEADLY WEAPON, into a situation in which you were not threatened or involved you are taking enormous risks. If you have family responsibilities you are placing them at risk also. You could by your actions be making the situation much, much worse. Since society has given you no authority to act, and you are under no obligation to do so, there will be absolutely no forgiveness if you are wrong. Your good citizen’s good intentions will mean nothing.
.
Am I saying you should never act unless you or your loved ones are directly threatened? No. What I am saying is you need to approach that idea with your eyes and mind wide open as to what the possible (likely) consequences are going to be. You need to understand that it is very, very easy for you to make a LETHAL mistake. You need to understand that, in the end, if everything turns out that you made a righteous decision/action, your life (and your family’s) will be turned upside down for at least a couple of years, and you may be bankrupt financially. If you were wrong, you are the FELON now.
 
Wish I knew how to multiquote. JCliff, you're from Wisconsin, and your examples don't mention the fact that JCreek and I both mentioned that the situation would dictate what we would do, which is using common sense. apvbguy, I'm just guessing, but I don't believe you're from Texas, either, but not that it makes that much difference. But.
The thing is, our laws in Texas show us that society has given us average joes the authority to act in anothers behalf... our laws allow someone who is committing a felony to be stopped... with deadly force, if necessary. The fact that I didn't mention all the hypothetical instances that could be dreamed up, doesn't mean that I wouldn't use the brain and good common sense that God gave me. I just brought up the things that came immediately to mind when I "liked" JCreek's post.
And my decision wouldn't be based on whether I had a gun or not. My decision would be made, based on what is right and what is wrong. And right is just like truth. Both are absolute, regardless of what the politically correct and modern crowd espouses.
If something happened that was questionable, I would use my brain and common sense to not make stupid mistakes.
Just my opinion, mind you. Whether you gents agree or not.
 
most state have similar laws, however I will ask the same question again, how do you decide whom the victim is?

If I walk in to a situation already in progress, and I have to ask myself that question, "who is the victim?", then I should probably not apply deadly force. And if that is the case, and depending on the situation, I may at least make my presence known which would hopefully scare the attacker away. There are just too many variables, not all situations are going to be the same. I may just have to do nothing and simply be a good witness, and hope that I made the right choice.

EDIT: not hope that I made the right choice, but believe that I made the right choice.
 

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