Deadly force justified to prevent restraint only?

NavyLCDR

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Neglecting all the argument about alcohol and guns and assuming (like in Washington), this woman would have been perfectly legal to possess a firearm (I know South Carolina is different) as long as she wasn't in the >21 years old restricted area (Washington law). At what point would she have been justified in shooting the perpetrator?

Derrick approached a female soldier from Fort Jackson who appeared to be upset. The report states 23-year-old Brittany Ball showed no interest in Derrick and the two started arguing.


Police say Derrick, who was not in uniform and was drinking alcohol, left the restaurant and returned with handcuffs he retrieved from his vehicle.


Derrick overpowered Ball, handcuffed her, pulled her to her feet, and slammed her head into a metal table, the report states. Ball, according to the report, was also drinking alcohol.


"And about the time I got my video out, he had her turned around and was putting her in handcuffs. I mean she never yelled at him. She never resisted. She was as calm as she could be. Obviously she was scared, I mean when you get arrested, especially if it's your first time you're going to be scared."


A police officer who reviewed video of the incident reports hearing Derrick say, "This is how Marines deal with soldiers," while slamming the woman into the table.

Would it make a difference if he showed a badge at the beginning and claimed that he was arresting her on some BS "causing a disturbance" or "breaching the peace violation" given the totality of the circumstances involved?

Is it justified to use deadly force to prevent a restraint which could result in grave bodily harm or death, or is it required to ascertain an actual intent to cause grave bodily harm. For example, let's say this guy just flashed his badge and said he was going to arrest her, while he was obviously under the influence of alcohol but showed no indication he was going to harm her. And then after he got the handcuffs on, he proceeded to do what he did.
 
I am a rather small woman... tall, but lightweight. If someone restrains me, I would be in fear for my life. Unless there's a legitimate reason to arrest me, and the person restraining me has been identified as a cop, I don't know what the final intentions of my attacker are. No matter what my attacker says ("I'm just going to tie you up, I won't hurt you, I promise"), I don't trust the BG! What possible reason is there to restrain me? Most of them are terrible. I will not allow myself to be restrained or taken anywhere against my will... there are worse things than death, and those things happen when you are helpless.

Now, if there are other people around like in a restaurant or a bar, I probably wouldn't go for deadly force. Hopefully there will be people around willing to help, and that's one place I can't be certain of what's behind my target. But then, it's hard to say since I'm never somewhere like that alone. Heck, I haven't gone out once since my husband got stationed overseas, except to a defensive handgun class!
 
Now, if there are other people around like in a restaurant or a bar, I probably wouldn't go for deadly force. Hopefully there will be people around willing to help, and that's one place I can't be certain of what's behind my target.

As we "progress" in our society, there are fewer and fewer people willing to intervene. This example is one where nobody intervened except for waiting for the police to arrive while a drunk man slammed a woman that they allowed to be handcuffed in their presence into a table.
 
As we "progress" in our society, there are fewer and fewer people willing to intervene. This example is one where nobody intervened except for waiting for the police to arrive while a drunk man slammed a woman that they allowed to be handcuffed in their presence into a table.

Very true... but everybody's willing to video everything on their camera phone! Seems that's what saved her in the end...

I can't tell for sure if everyone knew the guy was police before this occurred... Drunk or not, if a known LEO is arresting someone I'd be hesitant to intervene.

I'm honestly not sure what I'd do if I had been in that situation.
 
I was bashed up pretty well by a cop in 1971. If someone wants all of the details let me know. I was not resisting anything, I was absolutely compliant so please don't start off with "...you must of been doing something" crap. The plain facts are the cop was just plain ole pissed off...really pissed. He had me spread eagle over the hood of his squad car, told me not to move a muscle or he would break every goddamned bone in my body...at which time he brought his flash light down on the back of my head cutting my head and forcing my face into his squad car thereby breaking off one of my front teeth. Now at the time I had no idea what this cop was going to do next. He took me to the district barracks. While there I was standing outside of a holding cell. The cop got into a semi crouching position and placed his hand onto his service revolver and told the other cop that was there to be very wary of me, I was dangerous. He eventually charged me with being a passenger on a motorcycle and not wearing safety equipment (a helmet and foot wear). Turns out the charges were dropped by time I got to court. I wanted to ask the judge why not wearing a helmet deserved such a throttling. So what does one do when either yourself or another innocent is getting the crap beat out of them by LEO...are there any cops in the room that want to take a stab at me...errrrrr...answering this question. I know exactly what you guys do with little to no provocation. Sometimes I have a burst of gratitude that I am not a dog!
 
Very true... but everybody's willing to video everything on their camera phone! Seems that's what saved her in the end...

I can't tell for sure if everyone knew the guy was police before this occurred... Drunk or not, if a known LEO is arresting someone I'd be hesitant to intervene.

I'm honestly not sure what I'd do if I had been in that situation.

I think a lot of people do a lot of arm chair quarterbacking and arm chair training (including myself), but when it comes to the real situation, it's hard to predict what we actually do. The CO of my squadron was in a jet (Prowler back seat) on a very dark night catapult launch from the carrier that went very bad. They recovered and flew away, but he said in the debrief that the situation had gone past the point where he always said he would eject. Analyzing a situation in discussion, and even to some extent in simulation, is very different than when the situation happens in real life.
 
Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..
 
I think a lot of people do a lot of arm chair quarterbacking and arm chair training (including myself), but when it comes to the real situation, it's hard to predict what we actually do. The CO of my squadron was in a jet (Prowler back seat) on a very dark night catapult launch from the carrier that went very bad. They recovered and flew away, but he said in the debrief that the situation had gone past the point where he always said he would eject. Analyzing a situation in discussion, and even to some extent in simulation, is very different than when the situation happens in real life.
I think so, too. I do think analyzing different situations like this is a good exercise... Better than simply thinking "I have a gun, I'll be fine." Having an idea of what's out there and what can happen, and possible appropriate reactions can help make us better prepared.

It is impossible, though, to say exactly how you'll react until you get there. And it's important to realize that, too!
 
Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..

He should be fired then charged but the "department" will state the usual bull$hit that after an "internal investigation" he did not violate any guidelines and followed the proper procedure.
 
Watching this video is scary. This wanna be cop should be tarred and feathered. The woman (active Army) could do nothing but scream as her hand cuffed arms were twisted to inflict maximum pain. This is a disgrace to this PD. These are the ones we have to be ready for when the time comes. And it will..

You know, there are going to be some other members on this forum who will actually accuse you of being a cop basher and hater. :bad:

He should be fired then charged but the "department" will state the usual bull$hit that after an "internal investigation" he did not violate any guidelines and followed the proper procedure.

or he was suffering from PTSD and it would be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to fire him, so they will offer a medical/disability retirement.
 
Link Removed

Neglecting all the argument about alcohol and guns and assuming (like in Washington), this woman would have been perfectly legal to possess a firearm (I know South Carolina is different) as long as she wasn't in the >21 years old restricted area (Washington law). At what point would she have been justified in shooting the perpetrator?

My view is that that point is not depicted in the video because (I think) she's already handcuffed by the time the recording starts. If not handcuffed, she's already being restrained and otherwise manhandled by the pig (not a pig just because he's a cop, but because he's a pig of a human being). That said, given the means and opportunity, I think Ball was justified in escalating from loud refusals to shoving him away then to deadly force very quickly, but that evaluation is based only on what I can see, which the whole time she is restrained by him and/or handcuffs, so whether or not my evaluation is correct, it's moot. She had no opportunity during the entire video that I saw.

I think a more plausible question would be at what point did any of the bystanders have the legal right to threaten and/or use deadly force against Derrick? The article doesn't say anything about him ever actually identifying himself as a LEO, though some of the bystanders can be heard in the background saying he's an out of control cop etc., so I guess we can infer from that that he did identify himself at some time prior to the recording being started. Whatever, the fact that Derrick was arrested and charged with assault and battery on Ball is proof enough that anyone nearby willing and able to intervene on Ball's behalf would have been justified in the use of some level of force, even if not going all the way to deadly force. Of course, if such a thing were captured on video as well, it would have likely changed how the Columbia DA and PD prosecuted the case. They likely would've let Derrick go and prosecuted whoever intervened on Ball's behalf. Sort of a "post facto" justification for the assault and battery. Maybe not, but hopefully Ball is alright and will recover fully from the indignity the pig put her through, so it's probably just as well that no one did intervene.

Should a cop who has been drinking have their powers of arrest, etc. taken from them until they sober up?

In this case, they were Link Removed, at least permanently from the Sheriff's department he was working for when it happened. That's not to say that some other agency elsewhere won't pick him up as their perfect model for a cop. And if that doesn't work out, he'll find a job as a bouncer or a bodyguard or some other job where he can get his rocks off by getting in fights and brutalizing innocent people.

As to the general powers of arrest though, that question was addressed at least partially in that link. From the link:

The video, showing Derrick shouting at Ball as he yanked and twisted the handcuff chains, sparked outrage from many who saw it.

It also played a role in a decision by Columbia police arriving at the scene to order Ball released while they took Derrick into custody, charging him with assault and battery.

Last week, Lott disagreed with the police action, saying Derrick had authority to make an arrest and suggesting Ball may have been resisting.

But a state attorney general's opinion does not appear to support the sheriff.

In 2009, that office cited a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that determined a Class 3 officer like Derrick is limited in his law enforcement authority, and "without statutory authority to detain a suspect until another officer arrives..."

That sounds inconsistent with what we hear all the time about a "cop is always on duty," but that's the SC AG's opinion which flows from a SCOTUS ruling, so at least in SC, I'd say that's currently the state of the law.

And one last thing....

In the 10+ minute video there's a segment starting about 2:35 or so where it looks to me like Derrick is coppin' a feel of part of Ball's right breast. He doesn't completely cover it with his hand, but watch closely and you can see his fingers kind of "squeezing" and moving around the side of her breast when he's in this position:

Off-Duty-Cop-Fondle.jpg


You decide, but I think there could be a case made that some of that was a sexual assault as well.

Blues
 
Step 1 in a robbery, rape, kidnapping, murder by strangulation, etc. is restraint. Once restrained, then the rest becomes easier.
 
Step 1 in a robbery, rape, kidnapping, murder by strangulation, etc. is restraint. Once restrained, then the rest becomes easier.

Which, if a CC bystander reasonably concluded was what was happening, would make him/her justified in stopping the creep from continuing, right?
 
What I'm wondering is, if someone had intervened or she had defended herself, who would have gotten arrested? If it hadn't been recorded, who would the responding officers have believed?

How the heck do we defend ourselves against bad cops without getting large amounts of jail time? Thank goodness most of them are good...
 
I threw this one around at work and the GC is that the cop’s behavior was so far over the line as to create a reasonable doubt that he actually was a police officer. So your defense would be you believed he was impersonating and defended yourself.

There was also consensus that under no circumstance is he taking me out of that bar I will sit there in handcuffs until uniformed on duty officers arrive regardless of the cost.
 

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