deadly force at work?

[Jim Vinson]

their is this guy at work who continually makes the comment that he blacks out when he's angry.he says he doesnt know what he's doing.he has told me before that he would whip me on the job site,he said job be damned.he thinks he is a badass.but,he is definetley stronger than me and 14 yrs younger.i'm 37 and he's 24.he continually tries to intimidate me.i told him that i will never harm anyone unless they are trying harm me first.so,if he does attack me,do i have the right to defend myself with deadly force? i have my pistol permit and i carry a .22,

 

[Firefighterchen]

Talk to human resources? How about trying to find a solution before deadly force is an option?

But in the end...If you feel your life is endangered, protect yourself.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

You can't shoot someone because you are afraid that he will "beat you up".
Certain conditions need to be satisfied before lethal force can be used. They vary to some degree by state so I would look them up.
I for one would never bring a gun into the fight unless it was a very last resort and I faced imminent death or severe injury.
A gun is final. There is no coming back from "Dead".

 

[STLRampage]

their is this guy at work who continually makes the comment that he blacks out when he's angry.he says he doesnt know what he's doing.he has told me before that he would whip me on the job site,he said job be damned.he thinks he is a badass.but,he is definetley stronger than me and 14 yrs younger.i'm 37 and he's 24.he continually tries to intimidate me.i told him that i will never harm anyone unless they are trying harm me first.so,if he does attack me,do i have the right to defend myself with deadly force? i have my pistol permit and i carry a .22,

I wouldn't suggest bringing a gun to a fist fight. (GZ)

 

[Woody1960]

I would suggest you speak with HR asap. This guy sounds like a punk that used to fight in school and hasn't grown up yet.

 

[Sir Diealotz]

Where I work, threats like that get one fired on the spot.

 

[Jardbud]

I don't think it was a good idea for you to post this on the Internet. If something should happen and you were required to use deadly force the fact that you had been thinking about it could be used against you if the shooting wasn't clear-cut.

 

[GB-Boater]

Use your cell phone, record the threats. Either in voice or video.
Take it to your supervisors and HR as Firefighterchen suggested.
If an employee came to me with or without a recording the three of us would have a talk about the problem.
The second talk would be with the threatening person. He'd would be fired if I ever heard of him threatening again, no matter what the circumstance.
I, like most managers have no tolerance, for threats, or physical abuse in our workplaces.

 

[Danmc]

their is this guy at work who continually makes the comment that he blacks out when he's angry.he says he doesnt know what he's doing.he has told me before that he would whip me on the job site,he said job be damned.he thinks he is a badass.but,he is definetley stronger than me and 14 yrs younger.i'm 37 and he's 24.he continually tries to intimidate me.i told him that i will never harm anyone unless they are trying harm me first.so,if he does attack me,do i have the right to defend myself with deadly force? i have my pistol permit and i carry a .22,

Your co-worker's attitude needs to be brought to the attention of the boss. If nothing is done about it after that, take your complaint to the legal department of your local department of employment. Unless you are on that TV show, Axemen, violence in the workplace typically is not tolerated.

 

[tricolordad]

Yeah, talk to your boss. Don't tell them you carry. It's not relevant. If he jumps you and you HONESTLY fear for your life, then aim for the intestines. You'd be amazed what a .22lr slug can do when it ricochets off the hips and begins to fragment while tumbling. Remember to get off the X.

If you end up duking it out, remember not to swing, make straight jabs, keep the 1st metacarpal in line with your arm bones (to protect your wrist and prevent fractures) and don't over extend when you punch. Watch some boxing, you'll see what I mean. Don't swing for the head, wait for him to make a mistake and bring his head down to your level for a knee strike.

Many martial arts dojos and MMA gyms offer free trial periods, check in your area.

 

[CapGun]

their is this guy at work who continually makes the comment that he blacks out when he's angry.he says he doesnt know what he's doing.he has told me before that he would whip me on the job site,he said job be damned.he thinks he is a badass.but,he is definetley stronger than me and 14 yrs younger.i'm 37 and he's 24.he continually tries to intimidate me.i told him that i will never harm anyone unless they are trying harm me first.so,if he does attack me,do i have the right to defend myself with deadly force? i have my pistol permit and i carry a .22,

No time to read all the responses to your post but I am sure they gave you similar advice.
This can be an indicator of mental instability along with him trying to intimidate you. Let's not read about how he killed you or shot up the place when all too sadly there were "signs"
Go to your superiors, not just one up but as far to the top as you can get. They have neat titles now Human Resources.
Your phone has a voice memo built in. Find out what is legal in your state and record him.
Maybe get an order of protection but if you do they will fire him and wouldn't be surprised if they fire you also.
Go the serious route and talk to HR. Everyone likes initials and acronyms!:shout:

 

[dakotaracing]

I wouldn't suggest bringing a gun to a fist fight. (GZ)[/QUOTE]

How long do you let him beat you?
If your up against a younger, stronger opponent, do you risk being fatally beaten when you have a gun?
I started carrying because I DIDN'T want assaulted.
I have seen one punch knock outs. Do you then rely on the attackers tender mercies?

I personally will not be beaten while I am armed.

 

[Icemanii]

Have to agree with the talk to HR, file a complaint, etc. The gun is the last resort.

At our office, we had a guy couple weeks ago who told his supervisor in front of witnesses that he would 'end her' if she wrote him up again. Company called the PD, had him escorted off the premises and he is now facing more problems then work.

Get the company to dump this tough guy before it comes to blows.

 

[Nightmare45]

Call HR he will snap, come back with a gun and harm or kill everyone in the place, wait, no he most likley will not as your company most likely has a no guns sign posted somewhere or at least HR can remind him prior to termination you have a no guns policy.

 

[ezkl2230]

their is this guy at work who continually makes the comment that he blacks out when he's angry.

Sounds like someone has his alibi all worked out. At a minimum, contact your employer. Based on the nature of the threats, a PPO wouldn't be out of the question. You want a witness to what has happened; recording is useful to establish the reality of a threat, but isn't admissible in court except under certain circumstances, and you must also advise him that you are making the recording.

As for deadly force, that depends on where you live. In Michigan, this is our SYG law:

MCL 780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

In many states, just as in Michigan, you also have "other than deadly force" options as well that would probably be far more appropriate for self defense in a situation like the one you describe. The guy hasn't threatened to kill you - just kick your butt. Can you legally carry police strength pepper spray in your state? A taser? Both of these options are available to you in Michigan (a taser only if you have a CPL). There are a lot more options available to you than shooting the guy, and just because you can carry doesn't mean you should shoot him.

 

[ezkl2230]

I don't think it was a good idea for you to post this on the Internet. If something should happen and you were required to use deadly force the fact that you had been thinking about it could be used against you if the shooting wasn't clear-cut.

Not only could it be used to show pre-meditation on his part just by posting this particular question relating the particulars of his problem, it will also be shown that he was counseled to pursue options other than lethal force by most of the posters here. That strengthens a case for pre-meditation.

This is also Jim Vinson's first post. Trolling, perhaps?

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[Stan45]

Put it on your employer, document that they were informed, letter, e-mail. HR will help you with this. If they permit a hostile work environment and he does attack, you have a good case to go after them.

 

[Austin]

If you shoot someone that is wanting to fight you and doesnt have a weapon you are looking at doing a lot of time. On a side note you can get a kubaton and attach it to your keys and in an emergency it might be the leverage you need.

I would do a written report to HR and have them sign it if possible. Then keep a copy for yourself. That way if something happens you can prove that you tried to go about it in the right way. Not to mention if they sign it and you have a copy and the punk does something i believe that you have a valid lawsuit against your company as well. As they were told about it and did nothing, because they did nothing something happened, because something happened you got hurt.

 

[Stan45]

The bad guy does not have to armed, DISPARITY OF FORCE.
Ayoob teaches a formula for determining the circumstances under which we would be justified in employing deadly force. The formula is both simple and yet complex. Deadly force is justified when you are confronted with "an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm" to either yourself or other innocents, whose innocence and situation you are totally certain about. You can't intervene with deadly force in a situation you come upon without knowing what's really happening. Don't make assumptions based on what seems to be happening. The danger must be clear and present, immediate and unavoidable. This formula is based on English Common Law and Dutch/Roman Law, and it applies in all fifty states. It is determined by three criteria which can be remembered by the acronym A.O.J. Think "Administration Of Justice". The situation must meet all three criteria.

A = Ability. The person deemed to be a threat must possess the ability or power to kill or maim.

O = Opportunity. The person deemed to be a threat must be capable of immediately employing his power to kill or maim.

J = Jeopardy. This means that the person deemed to be a threat must be acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude beyond doubt that his intent is to kill or cripple.

All of the above are judged by the doctrine of the "reasonable man". That is, what would a reasonable and prudent person have done in that situation knowing what the defendant knew at the time? After the fact information is inadmissible into the equation. Your defense of self-defense is affirmative if you knew all of the above at the time you employed deadly force.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Call HR he will snap, come back with a gun and harm or kill everyone in the place, wait, no he most likley will not as your company most likely has a no guns sign posted somewhere or at least HR can remind him prior to termination you have a no guns policy.

I see this in my mind after reading your post...

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