Concerns with HR 822

Jeepdriver97

New member
I am pleased that HR 822 (CC reciprocity) was passed by the House. Sending notes to my two Senators to concur.

My concern is that while "legal" to carry concealed, I might run afoul of the local law against concealed carry in a bar, for instance. In AZ the bar must post a state issued sign near the liquor license if guns are not allowed. But what is the law for concealed carry in bars in the other 48 (not IL) states? Near a school, in a public building? Seems like trying to reconcile all the different laws could put a fellow in serious jeopardy as he crosses state lines. It is difficult to keep up with one's own state's limitations. Learning 48 others could be a lifetime avocation.
 
This law is not the end all be all of glory to CCW permit holders. Illinois will still not get concealed carry or gun ownership for that matter, the CCW permit holder still has to do his or her homework about every state/county/city that they are traveling through. The only thing that changes is that if a state has CC permits allowed then they have to recognize other state's ccw permits. Here is the real problem... how can we agree with something that forces a state to do something that they did not agree to do? CCW is not quite like drivers license in that it is a very special privilege to have one. We like to think of it as a 2A right, but the fact is that it is NOT. All this does is allow for the Feds to force states to do other things based on this bill. Woe to us all if this actually passes, I am not a big fan of the Senate but I hope that they step on it. Let the flaming begin... I stand by this thought process.
 
This law is not the end all be all of glory to CCW permit holders. Illinois will still not get concealed carry or gun ownership for that matter, the CCW permit holder still has to do his or her homework about every state/county/city that they are traveling through. The only thing that changes is that if a state has CC permits allowed then they have to recognize other state's ccw permits. Here is the real problem... how can we agree with something that forces a state to do something that they did not agree to do? CCW is not quite like drivers license in that it is a very special privilege to have one. We like to think of it as a 2A right, but the fact is that it is NOT. All this does is allow for the Feds to force states to do other things based on this bill. Woe to us all if this actually passes, I am not a big fan of the Senate but I hope that they step on it. Let the flaming begin... I stand by this thought process.

There is constitutional authority for this law. 10 Amendment requires state to recognize the judicial acts of other states. Much like the arguement that since gay marriage is legal in MA. it has to be recognized by all states. Even with your view point, a carry permit is a judicial act as it is provided by law. The 14th Amendment requires equal protection under the law. You can't have 50 different versions of a constitutional right. Yes, the carrier will have to spend time making sure he keeps up with the law in other states in which he may travel however, that is a small price to pay for being able to protect yourself while traveling.
 
You can buy a book or look up the CC information on the internet. Until gun laws are repealed there will be differences between States. It is the responsibility of each of us to know the laws of each State we travel to or pay the consequences. Just don't ask local LE for information, a few people in NY will tell you that is a bad idea.
 
Michigan - concealed carry is prohibited where a business receives more than 50 percent of its income from alcohol sales (a bar).
 
All this does is allow for the Feds to force states to do other things based on this bill. Woe to us all if this actually passes, I am not a big fan of the Senate but I hope that they step on it. Let the flaming begin... I stand by this thought process.

No matter how many times I read this kind of rant, I can't understand the statements that we should not do anything because maybe sometime somebody may make some changes to some laws or Bill that may not be good for the furtherance of our 2nd Amendment rights. We should instead work very hard to make sure that nobody does anything and there are absolutely no changes to any gun laws, even if they are perceived as good, while we continue to complain about the current gun laws??????
 
Why I Think We Need H.R. 822 ( long post)

Maybe someday the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States) will be forced to answer the questions: by what definition of “. . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” is regulation and/or restriction of by whom, how, and where that right is exercised, not a restriction; and, at what point do appropriate and reasonable regulations become, instead, a violation of the people's US Constitutional rights? But until then, the SCOTUS has held that concealed carry is a privilege and the Federal Government has declared that some people have, through due process, been disenfranchised from having rights under the 2nd Amendment. The power of the Federal Government to disenfranchise people from having 2nd Amendment rights needs to be clarified in the courts and SCOTUS; and, unless the ability of the Federal Government to exercise that power is overturned, that power remains. Once the ability of the Federal Government to disenfranchise people from exercising 2nd Amendment rights is established, then there must be identification of those actions that would cause a person to be disenfranchised. The Federal Government currently has such a set of criteria.

The following classes of people are ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition:
o Those convicted of crimes punishable by imprisonment for over one year, except state misdemeanors punishable by two years or less.
o Fugitives from justice.
o Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs.
o Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution.
o Illegal aliens.
o Citizens who have renounced their citizenship.
o Those persons dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.
o Persons less than 18 years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle.
o Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle.
o Persons subject to a court order that restrains such persons from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner.
o Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
Persons under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year are ineligible to receive, transport, or ship any firearm or ammunition. Under limited conditions, relief from disability may be obtained from the U.S. Secretary of the Treasury, or through a pardon, expungement, restoration of rights, or setting aside of a conviction.

Those criteria must be reviewed, by the voters, Congress, the courts, and SCOTUS to insure that they are the absolute minimum lawful and necessary criteria required to protect the life, liberty, safety, and welfare of the people. If, those criteria are not lawful and necessary, then we need to work to change or eliminate those criteria through legislation and/or the courts.

Once there is a set of criteria, there must be some means of identifying those people that, by their own actions, have violated those criteria and therefore have been disenfranchised from exercising 2nd Amendment rights and/or conversely identifying those people that have NOT been disenfranchised from exercising 2nd Amendment rights. A system, such as Vermont's, whereby each and every time a person's ability to exercise 2nd Amendment rights is challenged, an independent verification must be done, is extremely cumbersome. Under such a system, people will be treated as if they have been disenfranchised until the authorities get around to finding out otherwise, since “the danger” has already been “averted”. So, who is going to certify that individuals are NOT disenfranchised from exercising 2nd Amendment rights? The Federal Government or State governments? Right now, the States have assumed that responsibility.

However, the States in assuming that power have also assumed that they have the power to add even more criteria and/or restrictions to the people's 2nd Amendment rights. Some States have further assumed that power extends to denying anyone the “right to keep and bear arms” (known as “may issue” or “discretionary issue”) for any reason. Those State criteria and/or restrictions must be reviewed, by the voters, State Legislatures, Congress, the courts, and SCOTUS to insure that they are lawful and necessary to protect the life, liberty, safety, and welfare of the people. A prima facie assumption in that review should be: “Are any criteria and/or regulations beyond those at the Federal Government level necessary or even permissible?” If those criteria and/or restrictions are not lawful and necessary, then we need to work to change or eliminate those criteria and/or restrictions through legislation and/or the courts.

Once a person has been certified as NOT being disenfranchised from rights under the 2nd Amendment, there needs to be a way for that person to prove they are NOT disenfranchised A concealed weapons permit issued by a State is currently recognized as acceptable proof of that person's ability to exercise their rights under the 2nd Amendment. However, some States have assumed, in addition to their power to regulate the peoples' rights under the 2nd Amendment, that they also have the power (and right) to NOT recognize concealed weapons permits issued by other States. Such action is prohibited under the US Constitution and must be eliminated through the courts and/or legislation.

In summary, unless all regulation and/or restriction of 2nd Amendment rights are eliminated, there is a need for the issuance of concealed weapons permits and interstate recognition of those permits.

Our goal should remain, however, to reduce those regulations and/or restrictions to the absolute minimum that are lawful and necessary to protect the life, liberty, safety, and welfare of the people. While an extreme goal may be to totally eliminate those regulations and/or restrictions, I believe that will never happen because almost no one truly believes that absolutely anyone, without exception, should be allowed to own and carry a firearm anywhere. Only when all regulations and/or restrictions applied to 2nd Amendment rights are eliminated, could we have Constitutional Carry.

Conversely, only the truly delusional believe that by denying all law-abiding citizens their US Constitutional “right to keep and bear arms”, all weapons can be eliminated, thus creating a safe Utopian society. If they are not delusional, then what is their real purpose?
 
This law is not the end all be all of glory to CCW permit holders. Illinois will still not get concealed carry or gun ownership for that matter, the CCW permit holder still has to do his or her homework about every state/county/city that they are traveling through. The only thing that changes is that if a state has CC permits allowed then they have to recognize other state's ccw permits. Here is the real problem... how can we agree with something that forces a state to do something that they did not agree to do? CCW is not quite like drivers license in that it is a very special privilege to have one. We like to think of it as a 2A right, but the fact is that it is NOT. All this does is allow for the Feds to force states to do other things based on this bill. Woe to us all if this actually passes, I am not a big fan of the Senate but I hope that they step on it. Let the flaming begin... I stand by this thought process.

One either wants to keep the mess we have now or one wants to make it better. Incrementalism. Nationwide recipocity is a step toward Constitutional carry, which is a step toward Diplomatic carry.

Human babies are a study in Incrementalism. Watch as one grows up. They roll over. They sit up (and promptly tip over). They crawl (sometimes backwards). They pull themselves upright on furniture, only to sink back down when balance and strength fails. They are coaxed into taking unsteady, tottering steps with the help of a (very much) trusted adult. They begin unsupported steps and fail as often as succeede. They may even revert back to the faster (and safer) crawl mode to get somewhere - for a short time. Suddenly,
"baby's" clothing doesn't immediately wear out at the knees and the shoes are no longer a scuffed mess atop the front. Then comes the day when (no longer) baby seems to sail effortlessly over a high-jump bar placed above shoulder level. WOW! And it all started with a roll.

WE need the courage of babies.
 
This is the mess we have today.

Currently there are ten (10) states that do not recognize concealed weapons carry permits issued by any other states in violation of Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. (CA, CT, HI, IL MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, & RI) Of these, one (IL) does not have any provisions for issuing concealed weapons carry permits and does not allow concealed weapons carry.

Conversely, there are eleven (11) states that honor all other states' concealed weapons carry permits in compliance with Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. (AK, AZ, IA, ID, IN, MI, MO, OK, SD, TN, & UT). One state (VT) allows concealed weapons carry without a permit and therefore does not issue concealed weapons carry permits.

The remaining twenty-eight (28) states recognize some other states' concealed weapons carry permits but do not recognize other states' concealed weapons carry permits, again in violation of Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. These remaining 28 states are also not consistent with each other thus creating a mind-numbing and constantly changing environment for travelers with valid state issued permits for concealed weapons carry.

In some states, you can not even possess a handgun without a permit and permits are only issued to residents with a “demonstrated need”; effectively violating residents' U.S. Constitutional, 2nd Amendment rights .

We should have the right to protect ourselves in any state while traveling or on vacation. All but one state have passed concealed carry laws because the right to self-defense does not end when one leaves their home. However, as listed earlier, interstate recognition of those permits is not uniform, is in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and creates great confusion and potential safety and legal problems for the traveler. H.R. 822 would solve this problem by requiring that lawfully issued carry permits be recognized in accordance with Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States, while being subject to the same conditions or limitations that apply to residents of the State who have permits issued by the State or are otherwise lawfully allowed to do so by the State.

H.R. 822 would authorize a person who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm in one state to carry a concealed handgun in another state in accordance with the restrictions applied to the concealed carry permit of that state. This provision protects the ability of the various states to determine the conditions of concealed carry, much like they determine their individual state traffic laws.

The bill would not create a federal licensing system; rather, it would require the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.
 
You still gotta do your homework. Just because this passes you forget about all rules of law. That's a very ignorant way of approaching it. Even for law enforcement the rules will differ from state to state. Just because they are LEO's doesn't mean they can carry anywhere they go off duty. I got 2 uncles in law enforcement and believe me when they travel off duty they still gotta pay attention just like everyone else. Ultimately states still have the power to restrict certain areas. Just gotta be in the know before you travel.
 
You still gotta do your homework. Just because this passes you forget about all rules of law. That's a very ignorant way of approaching it. Even for law enforcement the rules will differ from state to state. Just because they are LEO's doesn't mean they can carry anywhere they go off duty. I got 2 uncles in law enforcement and believe me when they travel off duty they still gotta pay attention just like everyone else. Ultimately states still have the power to restrict certain areas. Just gotta be in the know before you travel.

This brings up another point, even if they pass the bill into law. The states will be able to create no gun zones, such as the entire city of NY or even anywhere in the state other than in a conveyance that is carrying you through the state. I am a fan of states rights, if a state has decided to outlaw conceal carry then so be it. Conceal Carry is not a second amendment issue, ownership and possession are (which is why IL will not be getting any of my money). Concealed Carry is a privilege bestowed upon those of us who have managed to keep our noses clean and have survived our poor decisions with our records remaining clean throughout, or at least the last 5 years in Kansas :) I cannot in good conscience be a conservative for state's rights and support this bill.
 
States Do Not Have RIGHTS, Only Powers and This Power is NOT One of Them

Conceal Carry is not a second amendment issue, ownership and possession are (which is why IL will not be getting any of my money). Concealed Carry is a privilege bestowed upon those of us who have managed to keep our noses clean and have survived our poor decisions with our records remaining clean throughout, or at least the last 5 years in Kansas :) I cannot in good conscience be a conservative for state's rights and support this bill.

“ · · · THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED [Amendment II].” This statement does not create, limit or endow a right; it is an affirmation of a people's right. It also does not delegate to the United States the power to infringe upon that right. Instead, it prohibits any infringement of that right by any entity, not just the Federal Government of the United States, but also the States or any political subdivision thereof. “THIS CONSTITUTION . . . SHALL BE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND; AND THE JUDGES IN EVERY STATE SHALL BE BOUND THEREBY, ANY THING IN THE CONSTITUTION OR LAWS OF ANY STATE TO THE CONTRARY NOTWITHSTANDING [Article VI].” All the States have reviewed and ratified the US Constitution, in its entirety, and are thereby bound by it. “THE POWERS NOT DELEGATED TO THE UNITED STATES BY THE CONSTITUTION, NOR PROHIBITED BY IT TO THE STATES, ARE RESERVED TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY, OR TO THE PEOPLE [Amendment X].” The right (and the power) to “keep and bear arms” is reserved to (and belongs to) the people and the power to infringe on that right is prohibited by Amendment II without any qualification or limitation. In addition, “NO STATE SHALL, WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF CONGRESS, · · · , ENTER INTO ANY AGREEMENT OR COMPACT WITH ANOTHER STATE, · · · [Article I, Section 10, Clause 3].” prohibits States from entering into agreements with other States such as “Reciprocity Agreements” for the carrying of concealed weapons, without the specific consent of the US Congress.
infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

This is not an issue of States' rights but rather is an issue of the Federal Government fulfilling its obligations [Article IV, Section 1 and Amendment XIV] to prevent States from denying citizens' US Constitutional rights!

By what definition of "keep and bear" does the 2nd Amendment limit the people to "ownership and possession" only? To bear is to carry.
 
Currently there are ten (10) states that do not recognize concealed weapons carry permits issued by any other states in violation of Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. (CA, CT, HI, IL MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, & RI) Of these, one (IL) does not have any provisions for issuing concealed weapons carry permits and does not allow concealed weapons carry.

Conversely, there are eleven (11) states that honor all other states' concealed weapons carry permits in compliance with Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. (AK, AZ, IA, ID, IN, MI, MO, OK, SD, TN, & UT). One state (VT) allows concealed weapons carry without a permit and therefore does not issue concealed weapons carry permits.

The remaining twenty-eight (28) states recognize some other states' concealed weapons carry permits but do not recognize other states' concealed weapons carry permits, again in violation of Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States. These remaining 28 states are also not consistent with each other thus creating a mind-numbing and constantly changing environment for travelers with valid state issued permits for concealed weapons carry.

In some states, you can not even possess a handgun without a permit and permits are only issued to residents with a “demonstrated need”; effectively violating residents' U.S. Constitutional, 2nd Amendment rights .

We should have the right to protect ourselves in any state while traveling or on vacation. All but one state have passed concealed carry laws because the right to self-defense does not end when one leaves their home. However, as listed earlier, interstate recognition of those permits is not uniform, is in violation of the U.S. Constitution, and creates great confusion and potential safety and legal problems for the traveler. H.R. 822 would solve this problem by requiring that lawfully issued carry permits be recognized in accordance with Article IV, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States, while being subject to the same conditions or limitations that apply to residents of the State who have permits issued by the State or are otherwise lawfully allowed to do so by the State.

H.R. 822 would authorize a person who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm in one state to carry a concealed handgun in another state in accordance with the restrictions applied to the concealed carry permit of that state. This provision protects the ability of the various states to determine the conditions of concealed carry, much like they determine their individual state traffic laws.

The bill would not create a federal licensing system; rather, it would require the states to recognize each others' carry permits, just as they recognize drivers' licenses and carry permits held by armored car guards.

My valid permit gives me the authorization to open carry where other citizens of my state who do not have a permit cannot. 822 doesn't address this among other flaws. I want to have the ability to choose. Why should I be forced by the Feds to carry concealed if I don't want to?
 
“ · · · THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED [Amendment II].” This statement does not create, limit or endow a right; it is an affirmation of a people's right. It also does not delegate to the United States the power to infringe upon that right. Instead, it prohibits any infringement of that right by any entity, not just the Federal Government of the United States, but also the States or any political subdivision thereof. “THIS CONSTITUTION . . . SHALL BE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND; AND THE JUDGES IN EVERY STATE SHALL BE BOUND THEREBY, ANY THING IN THE CONSTITUTION OR LAWS OF ANY STATE TO THE CONTRARY NOTWITHSTANDING [Article VI].” All the States have reviewed and ratified the US Constitution, in its entirety, and are thereby bound by it. “THE POWERS NOT DELEGATED TO THE UNITED STATES BY THE CONSTITUTION, NOR PROHIBITED BY IT TO THE STATES, ARE RESERVED TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY, OR TO THE PEOPLE [Amendment X].” The right (and the power) to “keep and bear arms” is reserved to (and belongs to) the people and the power to infringe on that right is prohibited by Amendment II without any qualification or limitation. In addition, “NO STATE SHALL, WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF CONGRESS, · · · , ENTER INTO ANY AGREEMENT OR COMPACT WITH ANOTHER STATE, · · · [Article I, Section 10, Clause 3].” prohibits States from entering into agreements with other States such as “Reciprocity Agreements” for the carrying of concealed weapons, without the specific consent of the US Congress.
infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

This is not an issue of States' rights but rather is an issue of the Federal Government fulfilling its obligations [Article IV, Section 1 and Amendment XIV] to prevent States from denying citizens' US Constitutional rights!

By what definition of "keep and bear" does the 2nd Amendment limit the people to "ownership and possession" only? To bear is to carry.

Let me start off by saying I fervently wish the Consitution as written was the law of the land. I really do!

The truth of the matter is no matter how many times you give your expert interpretation, cut, paste, capitalize, scream, or kick your feet it is no longer. The law of the land is what the Supreme Court says it is. Anything else is just your dream or fantasy. Another thing is, at this time, any decision that turns out the way we as weapons owners want it to go, is usually by a 5 to 4 vote.

If Obama gets re-elected or someone like him follows his (god forbid!)second term and gets more Court appointments, we could all be talking open or concealed carrying a sling with rocks (if the rocks aren't to heavy and don't have any pointy parts)!

So I certainly hope that for every rant you launch here you are also ranting at your duly elected officials! That is what will make an actual difference!!
 
Nice debate, but useless. Obama will never sign it. He has more interest in researching where the 40 acres and a mule are, like his buddy Spike Lee, than in giving anyone more rights.

When was the las time a law was passed that guaranteed rights rather than restricted them?

Please, no Libertard bring up the health care reform.
 
Your concern is correct, OP. But that was not what HR822 intended to fix. Without HR822 you would not need to worry about carrying in some other states because they don't have reciprocity with your state. With it you'd be able to at least carry there but have to observe their other laws.

In fact, if HR822 DID INDEED try to streamline the individual states carry laws it would be the law some hardliners have been claiming it to be all along. A federal law blatantly overriding state laws and establishing federal CCW standards.

What is amusing is that the anti gun lobby decries HR822 as an infringement on the laws of the individual States but always pushes another Federal Assault Weapons ban (no idea what an assault weapon is, could not find it on wikipedia, seems to be a made up term) which would do just the same. Obviously they don't really give a hoot about the rights of the States.
 
Well to be honest I'm not really a huge fan of "States Rights". The very power we the people give them. They turn around and violate our rights in every imaginable way. I would be extremely happy if states LOST 1/2 of their governing power. Maybe for once we will have a decent govt again.

NRA NEWS. Cam talks about HR822. He agrees it's good.
good enough for me. I'm not really worried about state rights.
 
Your concern is correct, OP. But that was not what HR822 intended to fix. Without HR822 you would not need to worry about carrying in some other states because they don't have reciprocity with your state. With it you'd be able to at least carry there but have to observe their other laws.

In fact, if HR822 DID INDEED try to streamline the individual states carry laws it would be the law some hardliners have been claiming it to be all along. A federal law blatantly overriding state laws and establishing federal CCW standards.

What is amusing is that the anti gun lobby decries HR822 as an infringement on the laws of the individual States but always pushes another Federal Assault Weapons ban (no idea what an assault weapon is, could not find it on wikipedia, seems to be a made up term) which would do just the same. Obviously they don't really give a hoot about the rights of the States.
You don't find Assault Weapon defined as section 30 of 18 USC 921 (a) was repealed. But here is the gist of it.
A semiautomatic rifle is an "assault weapon" if it can accept a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following:

A folding or telescoping stock
A pistol grip
A bayonet mount
A flash suppressor, or threads to attach one
A grenade launcher.

A semiautomatic shotgun is an "assault weapon" if it has two or more of the following:

A folding or telescoping stock
A pistol grip
A magazine capacity of over 5 rounds
A detachable magazine.

A semiautomatic pistol is an "assault weapon" if it can accept a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following:

A magazine outside of the grip
A threaded barrel to accept a flash suppressor, silencer, etc.
A barrel shroud
A weight of 50 oz or more, unloaded
"A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm."
 

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