Concealed Carry and Printing

[firstcavveteran]

First of all this is my first post and I am grateful to all of those who post on these forums for sharing your knowledge and experience. I have had my CCW Permit (Washington) for over a year and I carry 99% of the time. I say 99% of the time because I do have school age children and when I attend an in-school function, I disarm prior to entering the school; otherwise, I carry a primary and more often than not a secondary as well. That’s enough useless information for now, so on to the real reason for this post.

First of all, I don’t have any trouble with my back-up handgun. I carry a Beretta BU9 Nano 9mm in either an ankle holster on the inside of my non-dominant ankle, or a pocket holster in my right pocket, or a IWB holster in the small of my back. I can conceal this firearm with ease considering that out of the holster it almost completely fits in the palm of my hand.

My issue is my primary. My primary is a Beretta Px4 Storm .45 ACP. I am 6’0 265; by no means am I small. The main con I have heard about this gun is what makes it the best for me and that is the size of the grip. I have these huge meat hooks at the end of my arms and the handgun fits comfortably in my hand; (one the biggest “cons” I have read about is the size of the grip, it is considerably larger in diameter compared to a 1911). I have had my Px4 and carried it since the day after I picked up my CCW Permit. I am very attached, you can say it has become part of me. When I purchased my Px4, I had done research on different leather and kydex holsters. My final choice was a black leather DeSantis Speed Scabbard (Right Handed), a matching black leather DeSantis dual magazine pouch and a DeSantis black leather belt designed specifically for concealed carry. Although recommended by a local Dealer, the actual holster was not “made” for the .45 ACP but for either the Px4 in the 9mm or .40 cal. The .45 is a few ounces heavier and it was apparent by the wear it put on the holster.

I contacted DeSantis hoping that they would see the wear that the .45 put on the holster and develop something for the .45 ACP, surprisingly they sent me a replacement speed scabbard stating that even the .45 shouldn’t had worn the leather like it did. No matter, with the DeSantis holster, my wife commented almost daily on how noticeable my Px4 was on my right hip. My typical attire is jeans (Wrangers), an undershirt and a t-shirt over that. Even when I wore a hoodie my .45 was printing and I began to feel as though I was doing quite a crappy job of concealing it.

I decided that no matter whether my sidearm was printing or not didn’t really matter. Actually, I began to think that since Open Carry is legal in my state, if someone figured out what the mass under my t-shirt was, so be it, I didn’t care. I kept this mindset for a couple months, but began to think about the advantage I was losing should someone attacking me recognize what the printed mass was. I also began to think about those who may be frightened by someone possessing a gun in public, (I must admit that some people are against the idea of responsibly armed citizens) so I started researching new holsters. I had always wanted a Blackhawk Serpa, but was beginning to explore the world of IWB vs OWB holsters. Before too long, I decided to place an order for a Remora Holster after watching a YouTube review of these great holsters. When I received the holster, I was impressed by how it fit and how it felt. I was not ready for how the holster felt / fit with Jeans.

When I first got the remora, I wore it with whatever I was wearing as far as pants are concerned. Like I said, when wearing jeans, the remora holster isn’t as comfortable as with a pair of cargo type pants like the Wrangler cargo pants. I quickly noticed my Px4 was digging in to my side causing pain during extended wear. As I put more and more miles on my remora, I decided that it was time to get and put a Blackhawk Serpa to the test. Of course those who have a Serpa, know that wearing just a t-shirt with a OWB holster can be tough to FULLY conceal it.

This brings me to my need from anyone who would like to offer some sound advice. I still have and wear my DeSantis Speed Scabbard, I wear my Remora most often, and I wear my Serpa when I dress warm, with a coat, hoody, and other bulky tops. I ask for advice on decreasing the print my sidearm portrays. How can I keep from everyone being able to recognize I have something shaped like the grip of a handgun under my shirt? Maybe I am over-reacting, and if I am I would appreciate that comment as well. Thank you in advance to all of you who decide to offer advice.

 

[DCkilla]

Over reacting, maybe, Washington is an open carry state. So, printing is a no issue. If you have a baggy sweat shirt, move the serpa just forward of your hip. It works pretty good. I open carry most of the time, but in a pinch it works.

 

[Deserteagle]

Actually, I began to think that since Open Carry is legal in my state, if someone figured out what the mass under my t-shirt was, so be it, I didn’t care. I kept this mindset for a couple months, but began to think about the advantage I was losing should someone attacking me recognize what the printed mass was.

If you knew somebody had a gun, would you choose to attack them out of all the possible victims to choose? The majority of people would not attack an armed person because the threat of losing their life is so much higher in choosing a victim that can defend themselves. Dont be so concerned about hiding your weapon that will scare away potential criminals from choosing you.

I also began to think about those who may be frightened by someone possessing a gun in public, (I must admit that some people are against the idea of responsibly armed citizens) so I started researching new holsters.

If people never see guns, they will always be scared of them. If however, guns are seen in public more regularly, people become accustomed to them.

 

[anvil6]

My situation differs in that I do visit states where open carry is not legal, so I started with IWB holsters. Appendix carry is a non-starter for me (too short & too much dunlap). Leather single-clip centered-right-on-the-gun was as comfortable as a 8" concrete block and didn't pull the butt of the gun into the body to help hide things. Kydex offset-clip-on-an-arm concealed well, BUT did not offer all-day 7X per week comfort (it felt more like a brick than a concrete block). All of that research with a compact, lightweight single stack .45.

That's how I arrived at a hybird - kydex half-shell attached to a leather backer MANY square inches larger than the side of the gun - that both suspends the gun from my belt and greatly reduces discomfort of the gun being shoved into me. It does have some cons - rides behind the hip & is extremely difficult to access while seated. On the pro side, it conceals very well and is 24/7/365 comfortable. Mine is not a Crossbreed Holster Supertuck but they do have a try-it-two-weeks return policy. The downside is that you may need a longer belt and a size or two larger pants just to find out if you like that kind of holster. Oh, and I now carry a double-stack but not in .45 - my hands just can't quite make that size work for me.

 

[Stan45]

My advise would be to wear a larger T shirt, or try a different type of shirt.

 

[50SR9]

If someone is looking that close, ask them if they want a date. I don't worry about printing, couldn't care less. My state is not an open carry state till Nov of this year. Even if that wasn't coming I don't worry about it. Any LEO worth their salt shouldn't give a damn if you are "printing", you aren't brandishing, pulling it, or threatening anyone with it. Some nosy ass busy body will always be stirring the pot about something. Hellz with em all!!!! Have a nice day!:biggrin:

 

[santanzchild]

Have a supertuck and a crossbreed owb. Where both just behind my hip with px4 .40 no issues concealing just wear jeans T-shirt and a button up dickies work shirt lose over it. I'm only 5'10" 180 so It might work for you. Don't forget to play with the cant I have to use full forward cant to get the px4 grip concealed when moving a lot.


If that doesn't work you may need something like the compact px4 it is a bit thinner and loses some barrel and butt length.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727

 

[joatesiii]

Hi firstcav...I acknowledge your comment and concerns...I also admit that there was a time when I was very concerned about printing...we bigger guys carrying generally bigger guns tend to print more often...I have gotten over it...I would support you in wearing the most comfortable holster so there is less distraction as you live your life. My experience is like this...first, most people don't observe and look at us anyway...second, if they do see something under your shirt, they probably won't care...third, if LEO are called, you are legal and if you engage with them professionally and courteously, it ends up with you making some new friends...and, thank you for your service...

 

[firstcavveteran]

Thank you all thus far

I really dont know how to thank everyone who has posted thus far, but thank you none the less. I took a few moments after I initially posted to think about the entire situation and realized what really led to my post was my wife's voice saying, "Wow honey, could you be any less obvious with your sidearm? Your printing really bad." Thanks to you all, I can talk with her and let her read some of the posts to help her see that it may not be as bad as maybe she thinks a bit of printing is. In return for your advice, I would like to offer a bit of advice regarding something I do on a regular basis that may help someone who maybe hasn't considered this to be an issue. I found that it could be and why I now train for it on an almost daily schedule. I train and train drawing with each holster, and each gun in each holster. I typically practice my draws at home with a snap cap in the pipe and with different outfits. The idea is that unless the articles of clothing you wear are all exactly tbe same size, brand, style, type, fit, etc., which you wear each and every day, there are going to be different little nuances with how you side arm rides, maybe you use the same IWB every day; however, tbe shirt you wear on day one is a couple inches longer than day two, maybe you have a certain wardrobe for when you go to the range, whatever the case may be there are differences in each nd every article of clothing you wear, and differences on how each article of clothing fits when paired with a different article, (i. e., with one pair of pants, you might tuck the shirt in but with the other pair its untucked). When you target practice you no doubt practice different shooting positions, standing, kneeling, squatting, on your back, etc.; so why wouldn't you practice in different clothing? The sidearm could save your life or the lives of loved ones or even a stranger, but if you get caught fumbling with clothing it may not have the chance to. Hopefully my advice is new and/or fresh for some of you. I must admit, many things I have read state that people seeing what could be a sidearm is not always a good thing. What I mean is, some person sees me walk ito walmart or better yet my bank and notices a slight bulge on my hip closely resembling a gun. He or she walks out of the bank and calls 9-1-1 and says, "there is a large man who just walked into the bank with what appears to be a gun under his shirt." Even though he or she is not lying, they just painted a picture for a dispatcher that I'm holding a gun under my shirt entering a bank. That is not particularly the attention I want. I am by no means saying that I am frightened someone is going to misunderstand me for a criminal instead of the law abiding citizen that I am, because to me, in the end, it is an acceptable risk, to be able to respond to deadly force with deadly force, I just appreciate any ability to conceal it as much as possible; I hope that makes sense. I don't care much that people recognize what I have under my shirt, matter-of-fact I have been in a couple situations when I was being watched, eyed, looked up and down at, where I decided to stretch and yawn just big enough so they would see, since they were "sizing me up" anyway, it just seemed natural to let them size up "Jasmine" (the name I have given to my Beretta Px4 45 ACP) as well. Needless to say, their eyes in every case seemed to turn away... Thanks again to alm who have posted thus far.

 

[~OtisM~]

Try carrying appendix. 2 oclock. People don't even try cause they think it will be uncomfortable. It's not and conceals best and has quickest draw as proved on mythbusters.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I ask for advice on decreasing the print my sidearm portrays. How can I keep from everyone being able to recognize I have something shaped like the grip of a handgun under my shirt? Maybe I am over-reacting, and if I am I would appreciate that comment as well. Thank you in advance to all of you who decide to offer advice.

Speaking from actual experience of open carrying everyday, 95% of the population in Washington State either does not notice or shows no reaction to an openly carried handgun. Being able to use the gun effectively is 100's of times more important than making it undetectable. There are as many documented cases of totally concealed guns being taken from victims as there are openly carried guns. If you are in the Snohomish/Skagit/Island County area there are a group of gun enthusiats meeting for dinner this Sunday. PM me if you and family would like to join us.

 

[wizard]

I would try a larger holster, like a crossbreed super tuck or the comp-tac minotaur that has an adjustable cant. I would also try wearing it some where other than on your hip, such as the 3-5 O'clock position, as this tends to keep the butt of the gun tucked in to your body. I wear my 1911 this way and can conceal it under a loose fitting tank top. good luck!

 

[SGB]

I noticed you haven't addressed your belt. Even a quality holster does little good unless a quality gun purposed belt is used.

 

[discodan]

I was recently attending a class in which a Washington police officer was teaching and asked the same question about printing. His response was that it isn't considered brandishing a weapon if your printing.

If someone happens to see your pistol printing and does call the police, there are no laws being broken on your part unless you have it unholstered and are playing with it.

Although the police may show up to question you, it all boils down to what the circumstances were and why they were called.

 

[Lawbro1]

Hi Firstcavveteran,

As someone already mentioned, you might consider a slimmer gun for your primary, such as the Kel-tec PF9, although it sounds like you are understandably attached to your Beretta .45. (And the .45 packs a good punch in the case of self defense). If the grip is extra wide, you can sometimes find slimmer replacement grips; this might help. Have you thought about a pack/pouch/bag outside of your clothing, such as a tactical "fanny-pack"? I know a couple of guys that use such a bag for a Glock .40. Also, you could use a vest with a holster built into the chest area.

In any event, I would suggest getting used to the gun around the home, especially during bending, sitting, reaching upwards, etc., as it sounds like you are doing.

Good luck, and enjoy your CCW.

 

[tcox4freedom]

I'm 6' 250+ and sometimes sitting in arm chairs can be a problem when I would carry strong side. So, now I carry using a modified CBST AIWB; between 1;30 & 2. (Very,very comfortable!)

 

[Stan45]

You could try dropping 60-70 lbs, I bet that would help plus you might have the added benefit of living longer.
Not trying to be a smart ass, just facts.

 

[mruseless]

I'm 6' 250+ and sometimes sitting in arm chairs can be a problem when I would carry strong side. So, now I carry using a modified CBST AIWB; between 1;30 & 2. (Very,very comfortable!)

Hi tcox, can you describe how you modified your SuperTuck for AIWB? I have a CBST and a CB Appendix holster on order. Any chance you could post some pics?

 

[UATKP]

I made a holster that I wear on my belt at the 3:00 o'clock position... it keeps my gun in tight to my side, and the handle close to me. My belt is a belt that is commonly worn by the US Army to hold up their fatigue pants... which is not a very stiff belt. I wear a lightweight vest that covers it well. In the summer, I will wear an IWB Remora holster at the same position... 3 o'clock. My everyday carry gun is a 9mm Bersa Thunder pro UC... which is not a really small handgun.
Also want to add that "printing" in the State of Texas is a violation. You don't want anyone to be able to see even a shadow of what you're carrying.

 

[warthog97]

Here are a few techniques I've used to limit printing with my hybrid holster.

First, while the belt clips aren't totally a dead give away, they do draw the observer's attention to the location of the gun. I tried wearing a black belt to blend with the black clip, but it's still pretty obvious that 'something' is there. Yes, people are oblivious, but still, if you are trying to avoid drawing attention... Even though I use an Old Faithful holster, Cross Breed had the answer, their velcro clips. They clip over the pant and mate up to velcro installed on the back of the belt. You obviously can install velcro to you favorite belt, but I needed a belt upgrade anyway, so I went with the crossbreed belt with the velcro already installed. I found that with my velcro clips, the holster sat too low for me, so I drilled another hole in the clip about an inch higher than the factory hole, which got the whole thing up high enough for me to reliably use.

Second, I find that the printing below the belt line can be more problematic than the above. This is partly due to the fact that I already do the 'tactical shirt tuck' to prevent exposing my excess 'Dunlap' as I believe you called it. This tucking technique works well on guns on the 3:00 (or so) position. I notice that if the gun is closer to 4:00, the shirt seems to snag on my grip and pull out. Not a problem if you wear your shirt untucked. This all does encourage you to bend at the knees though, because the printing is wicked if you bend at your back to pick something up.

Last, I found that with my Old Faithful, that the kydex holster for my Springfield EMP was actually sized for a 5" 1911, leaving about 1.5" of kydex that I don't need hanging below my barrel. I measured out the cut about 3-4 times, got out the dremel and cut off the excess plastic.

The net effect of all these mods is that, yes, I still do have a slight bulge on my hip. However, I don't have any clips that scream "look here" and my arms are usually at my side concealing the bulge. Also, my shirt hides the rest of the gun.

One last thing, and this is kinda weird, but I've found that I can't wear 'performance fabric' (think UA) polos. For some reason, they tend to develop static cling throughout the day and will begin to stick to my body; no matter how loose the cut is, if the fabric clings to your body, the gun will print like mad!