Conceal Carry Thoughts

[gunsite]

Its summertime, people are out and about day and night, Heat, drinking, tension, hanging-out, confrontations/situations are more likely to happen.

Like a Kung-Fu master, avoid fights, avoid confrontations.

Carry using common sense, avoid printing as much as possible, don't show your hand, sometimes printing or being a known CC can work against you.

AVOID CONFRONTATIONS!! retreat, call 911, ignore idiots, punks, groups, and instigators, don't let them change you and your families life forever.

Don't drink and carry, Don't drink and carry and Drive!

Get some Training, you don't have to go to a Training Camp, some people don't have the time or Cash for Camps, find individuals who can train you, can be LE, Military, NRA person, someone who has been trained in tactical technics, DON'T listen to KNUCKLEHEADS.

Your training doesn't have to be extensive, i've train LE candidates, LE Graduates, and CC people, the training consist of common sense foundation training. Extensive Tactical Training should be done on outside courses/Camps.

Simple Technics can make a difference, Weapon Safety, Grip, Sights/Aim, Trigger Pull, Holster/Holster position, Drawing your weapon, KNOW your State's Use of Force Laws.. Conceal Carry and Home defense.

Don't play with your weapon among your friends, avoid ACCIDENTS.

Avoid looking for trouble... you know what i mean!

Know your LIMITATIONS

When you train/target shooting, don't set yourself up for failure.

Assesses Your situations, then proceed.

Choose your ALAMO WISELY!!

Pointing your weapon at someone changes everything, fire your weapon... and everything will change.

Your responsible for every bullet that leaves your weapon, and you can't get that bullet back once you hear that BANG.

Avoid using your weapon, only when you have NO other option/choice.

You'll never go Jail for NOT firing your weapon, but when you have to shoot, YOU SHOOT.

When you do shoot, shoot to STOP, NOT KILL, i carry a Glock 36 or 29, two shots to the chest will make the target stop and think. Good Luck... and be TACTICALLY SMART.

Always refer to your states guidelines and laws on GUN ownership and Carrying in Public.

 

[NavyLCDR]

sometimes printing or being a known CC can work against you.

Could you provide real world examples, please?

 

[chiefpropellerhead]

Over all, this is a good article with some excellent points. I only have a couple of suggestions or comments.

When posting an article, spell check really helps with grammar and spelling. Am I the only one that caught the spelling mistake with "technics"?

You say to "shoot to stop, not kill". I have a couple of problems with that.

A. if I or a loved one are in fear of serious bodily injury and/or death, when I pull my weapon it will be to put you down permanently. I will do my dead level best to hit you in the "kill zone". While I feel that I am probably good enough to hit you anywhere on your body that I point at, in the heat of the moment my first instinct will be to shoot at the kill zone and put the intruder on the ground.

When I went through a law enforcement academy back in 1981 they taught us to KILL a person that forces you to use deadly force. Deadly force IS just that, deadly force. If you want to use non lethal force then pulling your firearm and pulling the trigger is the LAST thing you should ever do. If you want to incapacitate an intruder with non lethal weapons then you need to purchase those weapons and get training on how to use them.

If you injure someone and they are alive that means that they can come back and visit you again and again. I am saying that it is possible, not necessarily probable. Not only that but they and their loved ones can sue you for everything you own. If the shooting is a good shooting then I think you probably do not have a lot to worry about.

Do we WANT to kill someone? I think that most of us HOPE that it never comes down to that. I would just as soon continue to do target practice at paper targets and be prepared. Being involved in a violent encounter with an intruder or assailant is not something as fun as what Hollywood would like you to believe. It is something you will relive in your mind for days, months and years after it is over.

Ok, I will shut up now... NEXT....

 

[gkeil961]

Amen Chief !

 

[marcparis]

shoot to stop vs kill

I think language and nomenclature get confused here. We should always be shooting to stop. Our goal is to stop the threat as soon as possible. That means we're aiming for center chest/head. There is a likelyhood that we will kill the attacker but that was not our goal. Some other locations ( abdomen) may be as likely to be fatal but take longer to stop an attacker. Once the threat stops (person falls to the ground seeming lifeless or drops his gun and runs away etc) we must stop shooting. If we don't were going to need to convince a jury why we were justified in continuing to shoot.

If we were shooting to kill then it means our goal is to kill the person regardless. That means we'd be justified in dipping our bullets in slow acting poison or walking up to the now unarmed seemingly lifeless attacker and putting 2 extra ones in the head just to be sure. Good luck with that when facing a jury

Shoot to stop does not mean shoot to wound. It does not mean shoot to kill either

 

[chiefpropellerhead]

Hey there marcparis.... I am going to cut and paste the original statement from above for clarity in my response.

Quote:
"When you do shoot, shoot to STOP, NOT KILL, i carry a Glock 36 or 29, two shots to the chest will make the target stop and think. Good Luck... and be TACTICALLY SMART."

I agree with you, in that there is a play on words here. Shoot to STOP, NOT TO KILL. If I shoot you twice in the kill zone with a weapon that has sufficient STOPPING power then it will STOP your forward movement (if I am in the front of you and you are attacking me) and there is a good possibility that those rounds will KILL you.

What was my intent? What will I tell the 911 operator? What will I tell the police officer responding to the scene of the incident?

Oh dear God, I think I just shot someone that __________ (put me in fear of serious bodily injury and/or death]. Please send an ambulance I think they need medical assistance quickly.

I would NEVER tell someone that I WANTED to KILL someone intentionally. The important thing to remember is that if you are forced to use deadly force that you identify to 911 and Police that YOU were the victim and that they are on the ground because they put you in fear of your life or the life of a loved one.

Now, here is another angle on shoot to STOP them but not KILL them. What if the assailant is armed? What if he has a weapon and it is pointed at your chest? Do you take the time to shoot them in the shoulder so they drop the weapon because you are afraid that your shooting them in the kill zone will not only STOP them but also MIGHT kill them? Well, officer (as you are lying in the ambulance with bullet holes in you) I was trying to stop the assailant (turd) so I just shot him in the leg or shoulder and I will be darned if he did not shoot me in my abdomen or chest or ear or whatever part of the body that takes a hit.

I guess we could go on all day with these scenarios huh? Anyway, point taken... Our intent is to STOP the person or persons who are threatening us or our families.

 

[localgirl]

Over all, this is a good article with some excellent points. I only have a couple of suggestions or comments.

When posting an article, spell check really helps with grammar and spelling. Am I the only one that caught the spelling mistake with "technics"?

Oh, chief, my dear. The spelling and grammar errors in many of these posts are enough to make this girl's head spin. I'm not immune from error myself, but my goodness....

 

[chiefpropellerhead]

I know, I know.. please forgive me... I just feel as if people who are using computers to communicate using the English language should take the time to use spell check. It is easy to make mistakes and that is why I DO use spell check as much as possible. I am not trying to be an arse. Sorry.... No harm intended....

 

[SFC]

Following the guidelines of Massad Ayoob, Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow. The determinant of stopping power is BULLET PLACEMENT The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him.

it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Shoot to stop does not mean shoot to wound. It does not mean shoot to kill either

Marc: In a situation where you have to shoot someone, very few people are accurate enough with a weapon to have the luxury to stand there and take deliberate aim at some point on the body to stop/disable a man. Time generally does not allow you to do that. I was always taught that, if you shoot, try to aim (if you have time) in the triangle between the nipples and the head. That should effectively stop a BG. Of course, he would be dead but isn't that the general purpose of shooting someone in the first place? If you don't have time to aim, shoot for the center of mass. I don't like the idea of killing someone but I also do not relish the thought of someone killing me but, given the chance and some luck, he will be the victim, not me. Asi' es la vida!

 

[gunsite]

Could you provide real world examples, please?

If your printing there's always a chance of running into that A-hole, the bully, the envy type, beer muscles guy/girl, the ignorant... i like being stealth, i don't want anyone to see me coming, i want to be a surprise... its a Tactical advantage. I don't like advertising.. HEY, HERE'S MY GUN...I'M ARMED.

 

[gunsite]

Hey there marcparis.... I am going to cut and paste the original statement from above for clarity in my response.

Quote:
"When you do shoot, shoot to STOP, NOT KILL, i carry a Glock 36 or 29, two shots to the chest will make the target stop and think. Good Luck... and be TACTICALLY SMART."

I agree with you, in that there is a play on words here. Shoot to STOP, NOT TO KILL. If I shoot you twice in the kill zone with a weapon that has sufficient STOPPING power then it will STOP your forward movement (if I am in the front of you and you are attacking me) and there is a good possibility that those rounds will KILL you.

What was my intent? What will I tell the 911 operator? What will I tell the police officer responding to the scene of the incident?

Oh dear God, I think I just shot someone that __________ (put me in fear of serious bodily injury and/or death]. Please send an ambulance I think they need medical assistance quickly.

I would NEVER tell someone that I WANTED to KILL someone intentionally. The important thing to remember is that if you are forced to use deadly force that you identify to 911 and Police that YOU were the victim and that they are on the ground because they put you in fear of your life or the life of a loved one.

Now, here is another angle on shoot to STOP them but not KILL them. What if the assailant is armed? What if he has a weapon and it is pointed at your chest? Do you take the time to shoot them in the shoulder so they drop the weapon because you are afraid that your shooting them in the kill zone will not only STOP them but also MIGHT kill them? Well, officer (as you are lying in the ambulance with bullet holes in you) I was trying to stop the assailant (turd) so I just shot him in the leg or shoulder and I will be darned if he did not shoot me in my abdomen or chest or ear or whatever part of the body that takes a hit.

I guess we could go on all day with these scenarios huh? Anyway, point taken... Our intent is to STOP the person or persons who are threatening us or our families.

The statement.. SHOOT TO STOP, NOT TO KILL, is what you better remember when you go to court, that is your platform for using deadly force. Shoot to stop the threat...

 

[gunsite]

Over all, this is a good article with some excellent points. I only have a couple of suggestions or comments.

When posting an article, spell check really helps with grammar and spelling. Am I the only one that caught the spelling mistake with "technics"?

You say to "shoot to stop, not kill". I have a couple of problems with that.

A. if I or a loved one are in fear of serious bodily injury and/or death, when I pull my weapon it will be to put you down permanently. I will do my dead level best to hit you in the "kill zone". While I feel that I am probably good enough to hit you anywhere on your body that I point at, in the heat of the moment my first instinct will be to shoot at the kill zone and put the intruder on the ground.

When I went through a law enforcement academy back in 1981 they taught us to KILL a person that forces you to use deadly force. Deadly force IS just that, deadly force. If you want to use non lethal force then pulling your firearm and pulling the trigger is the LAST thing you should ever do. If you want to incapacitate an intruder with non lethal weapons then you need to purchase those weapons and get training on how to use them.

If you injure someone and they are alive that means that they can come back and visit you again and again. I am saying that it is possible, not necessarily probable. Not only that but they and their loved ones can sue you for everything you own. If the shooting is a good shooting then I think you probably do not have a lot to worry about.

Do we WANT to kill someone? I think that most of us HOPE that it never comes down to that. I would just as soon continue to do target practice at paper targets and be prepared. Being involved in a violent encounter with an intruder or assailant is not something as fun as what Hollywood would like you to believe. It is something you will relive in your mind for days, months and years after it is over.

Ok, I will shut up now... NEXT....

I believe in "dead men tell no tales" except for FORENSICS... but in court the statement I SHOT, OR INTENDED TO KILL MY TARGET SHOULD NEVER... EVER... BE MADE. Except for SWAT TEAMS, most LE's shoot at body mass. Since most SHOTS/HITS don't kill people, BLEEDING OUT causes death, shooting someone and killing them instantly is a low percentile shot.

 

[gunsite]

Just watching FOX news and their showing the video of the Police shoot-out involving an escape convict. The officer yells after hitting his target, to put down the gun or i will KILL you... i would advise not saying that, will it come back to haunt him in court since his target survived... i don't know, i hope not.

Another thought which i'm NOT a believer in, is Stances, i know its hard to do in in-door ranges, but real life shootings don't involve STANCES, they involve positions, which should be practice, not STANCES, going to a STANCE in a real-life shoot-out will get you killed.

MOVING while drawing/shooting increases your odds of surviving deadly force encounters, small movements side-to-side or forward-reverse stepping is a great start.

The foundation of shooting STARTS with STANCES and Target practice, once you've master the MECHANICS... you can then advance to Tactical/combat practice.

Tactical training should be done with a trained individual, and always start with a dry run/red gun through the course... SAFETY FIRST.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Could you provide real world examples, please?

If your printing there's always a chance of running into that A-hole, the bully, the envy type, beer muscles guy/girl, the ignorant... i like being stealth, i don't want anyone to see me coming, i want to be a surprise... its a Tactical advantage. I don't like advertising.. HEY, HERE'S MY GUN...I'M ARMED.

Respectfully, I asked for real world examples. You provided more theories. In theory, the odds are greater that a criminal picking his/her next target, if they see a visibly armed target, will not attack them, but rather move on to the next victim that comes along who does not appear to be armed.

As far as tactical advantage, it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to attempt to draw your gun from concealment in enough time to defend yourself against an attack that has already begun by a perpetrator that has already surprised you enough to warrant drawing your gun

- or -

If your goal is to deter the attack to begin with because it is much easier and smarter for the perpetrator to wait a couple minutes for the armed guy to leave, or to go down the street one block and have their pick of the 99.5% of the remaining population that isn't visibly armed. I prefer to deter the crime from ever beginning and the concealed firearm offers very, very little deterrence.

 

[gunsite]

Respectfully, I asked for real world examples. You provided more theories. In theory, the odds are greater that a criminal picking his/her next target, if they see a visibly armed target, will not attack them, but rather move on to the next victim that comes along who does not appear to be armed.

As far as tactical advantage, it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to attempt to draw your gun from concealment in enough time to defend yourself against an attack that has already begun by a perpetrator that has already surprised you enough to warrant drawing your gun

- or -

If your goal is to deter the attack to begin with because it is much easier and smarter for the perpetrator to wait a couple minutes for the armed guy to leave, or to go down the street one block and have their pick of the 99.5% of the remaining population that isn't visibly armed. I prefer to deter the crime from ever beginning and the concealed firearm offers very, very little deterrence.

They are real-life possibilities... if you believe they can happen, then they're real. I suggest you do what you feel comfortable doing, i not here to convince anyone in my way of thinking, just to make someone stop and think, then make up their own mind.

You point of view is if an Bad guy sees an Armed person they'll move to the next victim... i see as a bad guy looking at robbing your cell phone, wallet, and GUN, and is alerted your armed and knows he/she needs to be quick and violent. Ask yourself what would you do if you had a Target, he had cash, cell phone, credit cards, and has a weapon on his hip, and you wanted to Mug him, or you walked into a store casing the place ready to commit a hold-up and there you see the PRINTING individual. Now its easy to say you'll move to the next store, or from my point of view if i was the bad guy... i would take out my threat...the Printer, then proceed with my hold-up.

Yes it did happen, only the printer was a cop, not printing, more like BULGING, two armed robbers took his badge, gun, and pistol whipped him and proceeded with the hold-up with a bonus Badge and Gun with their take. In Theory you would think it wouldn't happen, but armed robbers who are juiced-up, and/or Gang members and aren't rational, they don't care.

I personally like being clandestine, stealth, anonymous.

I know when i enter a room under hostile conditions, i could handle what i see... its what i don't see that worries me.
Good Luck, be safe and be Tactically smart.

 

[Treo]

Could you provide real world examples, please?

I can. I told a friend I had my permit , a week later we're sitting in church talking and someone I didn't want to know I carrying joined the conversation. At some point in the conversation my " friend" pops out of no where w/ " Treo's carrying a gun right now."

 

[marcparis]

I think we all agree that shooting to stop is what we're going for. I cannot fathom a situation in where a CCW carrier would/should deliberately shoot to wound (i.e shoot them in the shoulder, or the leg). If the situation is serious enough for me to pull the trigger it's because A) Myself, someone with me or an innocent third party is facing an imminent potentially lethal attack (or an attack in progress) B) Not pulling the trigger means that there is a very high likelihood that myself, someone with me, or an innocent third party will die or suffer grave bodily injury and C) my goal is to stop it ASAP. The way I see it, if I'm not justified in shooting center mass, I'm not justified in shooting. If I'm shooting. I'm shooting center mass. Now I may not get the chance to aim and may not actually hit center mass but that's my goal because I want to Stop the threat ASAP. This is also the same reason why I can't fathom any condition where a warning shot it justified or a good idea.

I will also continue shooting until the threat is stopped. So if I hit the person, he falls to the floor, gun flys away from him and is motionless I will stop shooting. If he drops the gun and runs away I will stop shooting. If he drops his knife and puts his arms in the air and stays far enough away I will stop shooting. The caveat is I will stop shooting after my higher brain recognizes the change in conditions. We all know that with adrenaline pumping we might not process the changing conditions quick enough and to an outsider it might look like we were shooting at someone who dropped his gun and was running away. This is where having good experts on your side during trial helps.

I'm passionate about the language around this because I've recently had heated arguments with a lawyer who kept stating that police were trained to "Shoot to kill" and when I tried to correct him on that point and that they really "Shoot to Stop" he took it to mean that I meant that they "shoot them in the leg" and that's clearly what they don't (nor shouldn't) do. When language is used too loosely it gets co-opted by people with their own agendas "i.e Bloodthirsty police shoots to kill" type of garbage. It gets used in the papers by politically motivated prosecutors, legislators etc etc

 

[RJT CCW]

Well put marcparis.

Saying the words "shoot to kill" will be used against a person in a self-defense case. Get them out of your mind now. What we talk about, what we think about, etc., will verbally come out of us under the stress.

Repeat with me: "He/She tried to kill me." "I was never so scared in my life." "I shot to stop the treat."

 

[SFC]

Old Grunt truer words could not be said.