Commonsense in Concealed Carry, and Gunfights


Unfettered Might

Μολών λαβ&
It's a mindset that I've never experienced with open carriers.

....and you most likely never will. OCers, in general, have more of a freedom mindset. I've noticed many CCers also believe in other "restrictions" on the 2A, whereas OCers, generally, do not.

Now guys and gals this isn't a blanket rule, but I can't say that I haven't noticed a pattern.
 

Axeanda45

Banned
Written by Jonathan "Kaymen" Adkins, Sr.

As with everything in life the application of commonsense can make things easier and can protect us from harm and/or embarrassment. When you include a firearm the need for commonsense and to think is paramount. It is the duty of every conscientious gun owner to act in a safe and responsible manner. With the evil specter of gun control always ready to rear its head compounded by the issues with concealed carry any mistake or error in judgment by anyone carrying a concealed weapon will be used to fuel the fire.

The most dangerous weapon anyone has is not a firearm, a knife, or a club; it is the mind. Like any weapon it needs to be used properly and maintained properly. The way this is done is from training and practice. Once the necessary skills are learned they need to be maintained and hone, they say practice makes perfect, in a gunfight perfection is survival. Going to the range to fire a few rounds once in awhile is not training, you train as you live, you train with what you carry and you carry what you have been trained to carry.

The first thing to remember is concealed means concealed. If you are carrying a concealed weapon that means you should be the only one who knows you are carrying it. In some jurisdictions failure to properly conceal your firearm is a crime and can result in some stiff penalties. Flashing or displaying your weapon in any way defeats the entire purpose of concealed carry. The reason for carrying a weapon is self-defense, by carrying a weapon you are accepting the responsibility for you own safety and the safety of your love ones.

As a private citizen we are not police officers and it is not our duty to chase criminals, stop crimes or save the world. Survival is the only goal. NO IT ISNT When you fail to conceal your weapon it limits your options and can make you a target.Please give actual examples to support this often used but NEVER proven statement If you are spotted by one of the local gun hating democrat soccer moms then you are a target for her scorn and possibly the local police if she calls to report a man with a gun SO? who gives a rip what others think, I know I dont.... On the other hand, if a criminal hell-bent on committing a crime spots your weapon you are now an obstacle that can complicate his plans thus a target BULLCRAP!!! again, give examples, If you are properly carrying a concealed weapon and the situation justifies it you have the ability to act to protect a life, I cannot properly defend myself if I am open carrying???????
however if the situation does not justify you taking action you can remain concealed and become the best witness possible.

If you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time and you are forced into action, the most important thing in a gunfight is to have a gun. You do not really need a gun until you really need a gun. You cannot defend yourself with the weapon that you left on the nightstand at home or in the glove box of the car. Once you have made the decision to act you act with extreme prejudice, it is always preferable to be involved in a shooting than to be involved in a gunfight.

Once the fight starts you are in it till the end, there are no time outs, there are no referees, and there are no rules You are trying to make some with this article, for example, that you ALWAYS need to conceal it....make up your mind here... You can make plans and think you will react a certain way, but once the rounds start to fly everything goes out the window. The best laid plans only last till first contact with the enemy.

Remember your only goal is survival, REALLY? what about your statement of being a good witness? if you are not shooting you should be reloading, running, or both WHY? and What about staying put behind cover?. Distance is your friend, if you have a good shooting stance you are probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly. The faster you finish the fight the less you get shot! Statistics show you will finish the fight with what is in the gun. This does not mean you do not need to carry extra ammunition; statistics have never saved a life. This is the same principle of needing a gun; you do not need extra ammo until you really need that extra magazine. Most failures to load in automatic pistols are magazine problems, if you can change the magazine it can get you back into the fight. But always remember that wolves hunt in packs; once the main threat has been eliminated keep an eye out for his friends.

We have all heard that discretion is the greater part of valor, the only way to guarantee you win a fight is to avoid the fight. While armed every confrontation you experience will involve a gun, yours. If you can evade, avoid, or deescalate any situation the life you are saving may be your own. Remember survival is your only goal!
So, saving the lives of my loved ones cannot be one of my goals? How about being a good witness?




I just pointed out a few of the things that I disagree with in the article. There are MANY ways to do things... and MANY different circumstances that one article CANNOT cover all by itself...... Parroting quotes from many gun authors and forum discussions and putting them all into one article does NOT make one an expert, or right.
 

Axeanda45

Banned
And your point on 08 is?

It is the kind of thing that is timeless also I do not look for posting dates. :pleasantry:


If you look at the profile for the OP, you would see he has not posted since '09....... So he wont be commenting on this thread anymore in all likelihood.. THAT IS MY POINT:man_in_love:
 

Kaymen

New member
My response

It is surprising what can come back to bite you when you are not looking. Someone dredged this one up from the dark ages. I logged on today just to poke around for a bit and see what was going on and lo and behold I see a title that appears familiar, posted by me almost three years ago. Needless to say I am glad that it can still spark open debate and I hope that someone somewhere can still find something useful and worthwhile from my writings and personal opinions.

First and foremost, yes I am bias where concealed carry and open carry are concerned. That is my personal opinion based mainly on a tactical point of view. While, I do not agree with the idea of open carry I fully support a persons right to do so. (A long time ago I swore an oath that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same,… So help me God. While I no longer wear the uniform I will always keep my oath and stand by the words I spoke that day. While I may not agree with what someone may say I will still stand up and defend their right to say it.)

To me the tactical advantage to concealing a firearm is it gives you options, and hopefully time. In my opinion, if I were a bad guy intent on committing a crime my first objective would be to remove the paramount threat; police officers, security guards, and legally armed citizens. Basic reasoning and survival of the fittest? By open carrying yes you may and most likely would be a deterrent. If I were a bad guy I would walk on by and move to an easier target. But that does not always happen, if all crooks were Einsteins then we would really be in trouble. The problem is the intent of the bad guy, if he really wants what you have he will try to take it. I feel that by concealing your weapon, you are reserving the option of taking action, you are not making yourself a clear and present danger to the bad guy. You can hide with the sheep and take action on your terms and not the bad guys, giving yourself the element of surprise, what tactician would disagree with having surprise on your side. I always prefer to act then being forced to react to a situation.

My comment towards democrats I will fully admit was in bad taste and plain wrong and I do apologize to any and all offended by it. But the intent of the remark was to point out there are people out there that are terrified when they see a weapon. They may not know it is legal to open carry in many places, they may not understand that the person carrying the weapon is just intent on protecting himself and is taking the responsibility for his personal safety. When fear enters the picture reason usually vanishes. While I personally do not care what others think, I do not want to be caught up in a scene caused by someone else because I choose to openly carry a firearm.

As for the rules and survival being your only goal, as I said, once the fight starts and the bullets start to fly the rules are out the window, it does not matter if you are openly carrying a gun or concealing a gun, the fecal matter has hit the oscillating cooling device and you had better be ready and willing to fight. I will use anything and everything I can to my advantage, survival is my only goal because the other option just in not acceptable.

Feel free to knit pick and point out where I am wrong, I am always willing to learn new things and share others view points. If it makes you think about the possibilities then I have done what I wished to achieve, even if you disagree I have made you think, either I have reaffirmed your point of view or I have give you food for thought. It is your choice. I just hope once you made your choice you act with responsibility and good judgment.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
To me the tactical advantage to concealing a firearm is it gives you options, and hopefully time. In my opinion, if I were a bad guy intent on committing a crime my first objective would be to remove the paramount threat; police officers, security guards, and legally armed citizens. Basic reasoning and survival of the fittest?

By concealed carry you are giving the criminal and yourself NO options. If the criminal chooses to evaluate you as a target, you have given him no reason to change his mind. You have given him no reason to consider any other options. All you have presented to him is the image of a target that is no different than 99% of the other targets. If he chooses to attack you, you have no option but to defend yourself.

While open carry may not give me any options beyond what the concealed carrier has, it certainly provides an option to the criminal that he did not have before. He now has the option to choose to attack a visibly hardened target, one that clearly has the ability to kill him, or he has the option to let me walk on by, and wait a couple minutes for the next apparently unarmed person to come along. Or he can walk down to the next block and check out the convenience store there where there most likely will not be "Dirty Harry" there.

A career criminal did not become a career criminal by making foolish decisions. They are smart enough not to mess with people with guns, because there are much easier ways to get what they want. That's how they became a career criminal in the first place. The amateur criminal is more than likely just going to soil himself in his pants when he sees the gun. We have yet to see ONE example where a criminal targeted Joe Schmoe citizen while open carrying.

By open carrying yes you may and most likely would be a deterrent. If I were a bad guy I would walk on by and move to an easier target. But that does not always happen, if all crooks were Einsteins then we would really be in trouble. The problem is the intent of the bad guy, if he really wants what you have he will try to take it. I feel that by concealing your weapon, you are reserving the option of taking action, you are not making yourself a clear and present danger to the bad guy. You can hide with the sheep and take action on your terms and not the bad guys, giving yourself the element of surprise, what tactician would disagree with having surprise on your side. I always prefer to act then being forced to react to a situation.

Look at my photo posted a few posts above. Seriously, a bad buy busts into a convenience store, shoves a gun in the counter person's face and demands money. I tighten my elbow over my gun. Do you REALLY think in the heat of the moment he is going to see the tiny bit of my gun exposed? Do you REALLY think he is going to notice the tiny action of my elbow tightening against my gun? But, when it comes time to draw and shoot, who is going to have the advantage? The concealed carrier is first going to have to move the concealing clothing away from his gun, and then draw his gun and fire - I've saved myself one step already by open carrying.

the intent of the remark was to point out there are people out there that are terrified when they see a weapon. They may not know it is legal to open carry in many places, they may not understand that the person carrying the weapon is just intent on protecting himself and is taking the responsibility for his personal safety. When fear enters the picture reason usually vanishes. While I personally do not care what others think, I do not want to be caught up in a scene caused by someone else because I choose to openly carry a firearm.

How do you propose to change their fearful attitudes if all they ever see of guns is what the Brady Campaign and the media show them? Would they not be more likely to change their opinions if they see normal Americans carrying guns for self-protection while going about their normal daily activities? Are they not more likely to change their opinions if they do call the cops, and the police re-affirm that the person carrying the gun is completely legal to do so? The idea that a gun must be concealed and hidden away, because it is a scary object only re-affirms their fears and promotes the idea that the gun is an evil object that must be hidden.

Printed pages 30-33 of this document:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

contains some pretty good statistics that show that felons themselves have said it's just not worth it to mess with a known armed target or to steal a gun from the person carrying it.
 

ranger351w

New member
By concealed carry you are giving the criminal and yourself NO options. If the criminal chooses to evaluate you as a target, you have given him no reason to change his mind. You have given him no reason to consider any other options. All you have presented to him is the image of a target that is no different than 99% of the other targets. If he chooses to attack you, you have no option but to defend yourself.

While open carry may not give me any options beyond what the concealed carrier has, it certainly provides an option to the criminal that he did not have before. He now has the option to choose to attack a visibly hardened target, one that clearly has the ability to kill him, or he has the option to let me walk on by, and wait a couple minutes for the next apparently unarmed person to come along. Or he can walk down to the next block and check out the convenience store there where there most likely will not be "Dirty Harry" there.

A career criminal did not become a career criminal by making foolish decisions. They are smart enough not to mess with people with guns, because there are much easier ways to get what they want. That's how they became a career criminal in the first place. The amateur criminal is more than likely just going to soil himself in his pants when he sees the gun. We have yet to see ONE example where a criminal targeted Joe Schmoe citizen while open carrying.



Look at my photo posted a few posts above. Seriously, a bad buy busts into a convenience store, shoves a gun in the counter person's face and demands money. I tighten my elbow over my gun. Do you REALLY think in the heat of the moment he is going to see the tiny bit of my gun exposed? Do you REALLY think he is going to notice the tiny action of my elbow tightening against my gun? But, when it comes time to draw and shoot, who is going to have the advantage? The concealed carrier is first going to have to move the concealing clothing away from his gun, and then draw his gun and fire - I've saved myself one step already by open carrying.



How do you propose to change their fearful attitudes if all they ever see of guns is what the Brady Campaign and the media show them? Would they not be more likely to change their opinions if they see normal Americans carrying guns for self-protection while going about their normal daily activities? Are they not more likely to change their opinions if they do call the cops, and the police re-affirm that the person carrying the gun is completely legal to do so? The idea that a gun must be concealed and hidden away, because it is a scary object only re-affirms their fears and promotes the idea that the gun is an evil object that must be hidden.

Printed pages 30-33 of this document:
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

contains some pretty good statistics that show that felons themselves have said it's just not worth it to mess with a known armed target or to steal a gun from the person carrying it.

Be careful! It seems if you do not research the op's birthday and how long ago they posted you will be spanked!:wacko: You even need to research if they have been on since who knows how long. How petty!

It was a good site to but things being what they are I believe I shall bow out now. enjoy.
 

Fitch

New member
Navy_LT,

Thanks for the link. That document is awesome. Saved it to my HD for further study.

I'm not comfortable with open carry. Not for me. I've not seen anybody doing it that didn't have a badge on their belt next to the gun truth be told. But I sure appreciate the link, it has a bunch of useful data in it.

I think situational awareness is a huge factor in both avoidance and prevention, probably more than anything else.

Fitch
 

NavyLCDR

New member
Be careful! It seems if you do not research the op's birthday and how long ago they posted you will be spanked!:wacko: You even need to research if they have been on since who knows how long. How petty!

Really. I responded to a post that was made yesterday by the original author of this thread.
It was a good site to but things being what they are I believe I shall bow out now. enjoy.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I think situational awareness is a huge factor in both avoidance and prevention, probably more than anything else.

Fitch

I absolutely agree!
 

santa

santa
i admit i prefer concealed carry for many reasons already talked about. but i have open carried on a few occassions in rural settings. this subject has and will continue to be debated. but there is no way i think that open carry should be banned and the states that it is need to change their laws. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" at the same time states like maryland, california and others need to loosen up on concealed carry. i may not open carry much but to anybody who wants to thats your right and i will support it. please support me when i conceal carry
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
I think carry manner is and should be the choice of the individual, but every citizen within the law should be able to carry either way they chose. I also chose not to spend my money or my time in states where I have to depend on the police/sheriff, been robbed 3 times in my life and they were not in the area not their fault, but no protection or choices were available at those times.
 

Unfettered Might

Μολών λαβ&
i admit i prefer concealed carry for many reasons already talked about. but i have open carried on a few occassions in rural settings. this subject has and will continue to be debated. but there is no way i think that open carry should be banned and the states that it is need to change their laws. "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" at the same time states like maryland, california and others need to loosen up on concealed carry. i may not open carry much but to anybody who wants to thats your right and i will support it. please support me when i conceal carry

Not a problem, I think they all should be constitutional carry states and with enough diligence, they will be.
 

tuts40

New member
Is Taurus semi-auto handguns as reliable as GLOCK? Do they jam up/FTF often?

Aside from the obvious need to have you not post this in a thread that deals with another subject altogether, I'd answer you "No", then "depends on the model". As for me, I'd rather get another Glock as I'd then get a cookie. Now, about those damn cookies, i STILL haven't gotton mine. ...MODERATOR, how the "H, E, double toothpicks" do I get my flipp'n cookie?
 

Fitch

New member
Possibly relevant.

I learned about the book "Just 2 Seconds" on a different forum a few days ago. The Author's website related to the book is here: Link Removed

The book, was written for what he calls "Protectors", AKA Bodyguards, but there is a lot of information in it that might be useful in forming a personal philosophy on protecting one's self. I've read the excerpts I could download from his site, and will be ordering the book as soon as it is available on the Nook.

Meanwhile, one of his interesting points was related to when attacks happen. That they happen "now". His logic is more involved that I want to get into here, but I agree with the concept. My takeaway from what was available in the excerpts is reaffirmation, based on extensive study, that the fundamental tool of protection of one's self or others is quite simply being situationally aware. Being in the here and now, awake and alert to surroundings, not obliviously texting with tunes blasting in your ears (remarkably common) while out and about. It may be pedagogically verbose, or maybe even an unctuous elaboration of the obvious and I suppose that should be commonsense, but being alert seems to be a remarkably uncommon practice.

I don't have a link to it handy (edited to add this link http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/n...ased-in-Walmart-robbery-2224922.php#item-6586 ) but recently there was a surveillance video of a woman going to her car in a parking lot completely oblivious while her attacker loitered across the lane from her, turning his back to passing cars, till she was distracted by putting her recent acquisitions in the back of her SUV. Then he launched his attack across the 12' to 15' that seperated them, took her purse at gunpoint and ran off. From the moment of initiation to his successful escape is not much more than 8 seconds. Had she been alert and suspicious of his behavior, she might have been able to take an action that made her a less appealing victim.

Fitch
 

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
49,437
Messages
623,666
Members
74,275
Latest member
zxclord123
Top