Clarification on when to shoot

[Stegahorse]

1 man was attacked by 4 others while leaving a bar. A Friend of the one man drew his firearm and wounded the 4 attackers. The shooter was arrested and charged with aggravates assault. I am waiting to see if the Assault charges stick as he claims self defense for him and his friend.

 

[Nightmare45]

Although self defense is allowed leaving a bar with a gun may cause a "bump in the road"

 

[mojoman]

It will be interesting to see the out come.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Depends on state law.

 

[GHF]

Issues

Depends on three issues

1. Disparity of force - 4 on 1 which became 2
2. The ability to met force with equal (deadly) force in defense of another
3. Need to retreat

In Florida, the shoot would, at least initially, be righteous.

 

[wolf_fire]

1 man was attacked by 4 others while leaving a bar. A Friend of the one man drew his firearm and wounded the 4 attackers. The shooter was arrested and charged with aggravates assault. I am waiting to see if the Assault charges stick as he claims self defense for him and his friend.

There are many variables this post does not address. Was there a disparity in size among the four individuals versus the other two individuals? In other words was it four folks from Lambda Lambda Lambda (see, Revenge of the Nerds) against two, let's say the Rock and HHH? Can either of the two claim that the incident was life-threatening to a jury with reasonable belief. What do the laws say in the state where this happened about people being in a bar while carrying a firearm? What does it say about carrying a firearm and drinking? Was the shooter drinking? How far into the attack did the shooting take place... in other words, was it a mugging where they tried to take the wallet and run, or was it a low-down dirty beating? Did the attack happen where the four had weapons? If they had weapons, what kind?

Bringing a lethal weapon into a fight has to be justified. The justification comes down to whether or not there is reasonable belief that someone's life was on the line.

 

[whodat2710]

There are many variables this post does not address. Was there a disparity in size among the four individuals versus the other two individuals? In other words was it four folks from Lambda Lambda Lambda (see, Revenge of the Nerds) against two, let's say the Rock and HHH? Can either of the two claim that the incident was life-threatening to a jury with reasonable belief. What do the laws say in the state where this happened about people being in a bar while carrying a firearm? What does it say about carrying a firearm and drinking? Was the shooter drinking? How far into the attack did the shooting take place... in other words, was it a mugging where they tried to take the wallet and run, or was it a low-down dirty beating? Did the attack happen where the four had weapons? If they had weapons, what kind?

Bringing a lethal weapon into a fight has to be justified. The justification comes down to whether or not there is reasonable belief that someone's life was on the line.

You have some good points (blue) and some that are off (red). I think the biggest would be whether or not the shooter had been drinking. The state is not listed in the OP, but I don't think any state says it is cool to be armed and intoxicated. Depending on the state laws, the rest is grey. Being required to justify that your life is in danger would not apply in most states. Justified self defense (or defense of others) usually uses "serious bodily injury" not "imminent death" as a basis for judgement.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

1 man was attacked by 4 others while leaving a bar. A Friend of the one man drew his firearm and wounded the 4 attackers. The shooter was arrested and charged with aggravates assault. I am waiting to see if the Assault charges stick as he claims self defense for him and his friend.

You're a Firearms instructor and you don't know when to deploy lethal force or not?

 

[wolf_fire]

You have some good points (blue) and some that are off (red). I think the biggest would be whether or not the shooter had been drinking. The state is not listed in the OP, but I don't think any state says it is cool to be armed and intoxicated. Depending on the state laws, the rest is grey. Being required to justify that your life is in danger would not apply in most states. Justified self defense (or defense of others) usually uses "serious bodily injury" not "imminent death" as a basis for judgement.

I'll concede on the "serious bodily injury". You stated that much clearer than I did.

However, in PA, you may carry and drink at the same time. Not sure about how many other states are the same, for I know in OH, you cannot even carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol. However, with that said, someone who was drinking and does shoot, will be looking down a prosecutor's line of questioning that will get very intense. That prosecutor will try to rip his judgment apart and state that the alcohol in his system played a role in bad judgment. This could discredit an otherwise credible justified shooting. Regardless of the law in the state, drinking while carrying is a rather stupid thing to do.

Again, as you stated it comes down to the state the attack happened in, and we need many more details as to what happened.

And to CharlesMorrison, excellent point. How is it a firearm's instructor does not know when to employ lethal force? I howled when I saw what you wrote and then shuddered a bit knowing there are firearms instructors who are ignorant of such things. I'm hoping the OP just wanted our thoughts, but now I'm curious.

 

[BluesStringer]

You're a Firearms instructor and you don't know when to deploy lethal force or not?

And to CharlesMorrison, excellent point. How is it a firearm's instructor does not know when to employ lethal force? I howled when I saw what you wrote and then shuddered a bit knowing there are firearms instructors who are ignorant of such things. I'm hoping the OP just wanted our thoughts, but now I'm curious.

All I see on the OP's status-graphics is a "Site Supporter" emblem. I don't see an "Instructor" emblem and didn't notice him stating he was an instructor in anything he said.

So is my 'puter messed up and not displaying the same graphics as y'all's, or are your guys' eye-sight going the way of rotary-dial phone?

Blues

 

[whodat2710]

All I see on the OP's status-graphics is a "Site Supporter" emblem. I don't see an "Instructor" emblem and didn't notice him stating he was an instructor in anything he said.

So is my 'puter messed up and not displaying the same graphics as y'all's, or are your guys' eye-sight going the way of rotary-dial phone?

Blues

Blues, I almost asked the same thing, but out of curiosity I looked at the guys profile. CM was right, and he does claim to be an instructor.

 

[BluesStringer]

Blues, I almost asked the same thing, but out of curiosity I looked at the guys profile. CM was right, and he does claim to be an instructor.

Ah, well, that 'splains it then. Nevermind.

Blues

 

[kelcarry]

Depends on state law.

In a nutshell--the answer. If the state has an Alter Ego rule in its law as does SC--all is ok including shield from civil liability. The only problem with the rule is to be 100% certain of the situation before you stick you 2 cents into the fray, wherein, under Alter Ego, you can act as if you are the person being attacked and are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury, which is the basic precursor to using your firearm for defense. If you are wrong in your assessment of situation, you have a big problem. If the thread is so cut and dry as laid out--this is simple and in SC, you have no problem. Other states, as if we have to go through the list of the pansy-a**ed states, they just as soon hang you even though you do the right thing.

 

[Stegahorse]

update

I'll concede on the "serious bodily injury". You stated that much clearer than I did.

However, in PA, you may carry and drink at the same time. Not sure about how many other states are the same, for I know in OH, you cannot even carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol. However, with that said, someone who was drinking and does shoot, will be looking down a prosecutor's line of questioning that will get very intense. That prosecutor will try to rip his judgment apart and state that the alcohol in his system played a role in bad judgment. This could discredit an otherwise credible justified shooting. Regardless of the law in the state, drinking while carrying is a rather stupid thing to do.

Again, as you stated it comes down to the state the attack happened in, and we need many more details as to what happened.

And to CharlesMorrison, excellent point. How is it a firearm's instructor does not know when to employ lethal force? I howled when I saw what you wrote and then shuddered a bit knowing there are firearms instructors who are ignorant of such things. I'm hoping the OP just wanted our thoughts, but now I'm curious.

Indiana, He was arrested and being arraigned. The Judge allowed the Prosecution more time to file additional charges. Both sides say the incident reflects stand your ground and defense of self and others. The issue seems to be wounding instead of killing. They had just stepped out of a bar when they were jumped by 4 men. The 4 were jointly attacking the one and the other tried yelling first to stop the beating, then fired when they continued to beat.

 

[BC1]

There are many variables this post does not address. Was there a disparity in size among the four individuals versus the other two individuals? In other words was it four folks from Lambda Lambda Lambda (see, Revenge of the Nerds) against two, let's say the Rock and HHH? Can either of the two claim that the incident was life-threatening to a jury with reasonable belief. What do the laws say in the state where this happened about people being in a bar while carrying a firearm? What does it say about carrying a firearm and drinking? Was the shooter drinking? How far into the attack did the shooting take place... in other words, was it a mugging where they tried to take the wallet and run, or was it a low-down dirty beating? Did the attack happen where the four had weapons? If they had weapons, what kind?

Bringing a lethal weapon into a fight has to be justified. The justification comes down to whether or not there is reasonable belief that someone's life was on the line.

Good observations. The devil lies in the details. Mas Ayoob once said if you use a gun for defense, even if you're completely within the law, expect to be arrested.

 

[JimTh]

You mean the attackers were stupid enough to continue the attack after they knew the shooter had a firearm? Did the shooter give the attackers opportunity to withdraw or did he just start pulling the trigger? If the latter is the case then the charge may be appropriate. If the attackers continued the attack after understanding a firearm was being brought to bare then the shoot was probably justified. IMHO of course.

 

[JimTh]

Of course you can always use the SoCal LEO method and jut tart blasting away at the first guy witha water hose.

 

[Raider-3]

Not sure there is enough information here

 

[wolf_fire]

All I see on the OP's status-graphics is a "Site Supporter" emblem. I don't see an "Instructor" emblem and didn't notice him stating he was an instructor in anything he said.

So is my 'puter messed up and not displaying the same graphics as y'all's, or are your guys' eye-sight going the way of rotary-dial phone?

Blues

Checked, rechecked, and now I'm scratching my head. When I read CharlesMorrison's post, I purposely went and checked the OP's post and I'd have sworn it said "instructor". Now, I'm looking and it doesn't. I'm going to the eye-doctor and then maybe the psychiatrist after that. *scratching head and walking away muttering incoherently*

 

[CharlesMorrison]

All I see on the OP's status-graphics is a "Site Supporter" emblem. I don't see an "Instructor" emblem and didn't notice him stating he was an instructor in anything he said.

So is my 'puter messed up and not displaying the same graphics as y'all's, or are your guys' eye-sight going the way of rotary-dial phone?

Blues

I use the infamous "TapaTalk" app on my phone and iTouch.
If I tap on your photo, it brings me to your profile.
In the OP's profile, he has it written that he is a firearms instructor. Now I don't know if he has "changed" that since his first post here but it was there when he asked his question. That is why I commented as I did.

ETA: Nope. its still there. it is in his profile, on the question "are you in the industry". He lists "instructor, gun club".

Sent from behind enemy lines.