Citizens Encouraged to Fight Shooters


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indyyy

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Has anyone in other states/cities heard this or is it just Indiana/Indianapolis so far? I heard it on the news first last night and 3 times tonight on the 6 pm news.

Because of increased shootings around the country, the IMPD Chief of Police has been on the news stating that law enforcement has changed it's view on citizen's self defense. Before we were to use deadly force only for self defense and as a last resort.

But I guess the Ca shooting last night was the final straw. The Chief says because of the increased attacks taking place around the country, if we find ourselves someplace where there's a perpetrator that we are encouraged to fight back and to take out the perpetrator if we're in a position to do so. He goes on to say the police may not get there for a few minutes or longer when it is too late to save lives. So, we are now not only allowed but encouraged by law enforcement to step up and fight terrorists/killers.

Not that I want to go out and become a super hero or vigilante, but I've been thinking they should do this for awhile now.

The news made it sound like this policy change is taking place in much of the country and not just here in Indianapolis. Have any of you heard this or something similar in your state/city ?
 

It's not my city, but Chief of Police Cathy Lanier in D.C. created quite a stir with a similar announcement a couple of weeks ago on 60 minutes. Hers is hypocritical, though, since she has only issued around 45 concealed carry licenses to date.

Cathy Lanier, D.C. police chief, urges public to 'take down' active gunman if they can - Washington Times

I've heard there are others giving the same advice, but none are as prominent as Lanier.

It's great to hear this level of public support from your own city's police force!
 
It's not my city, but Chief of Police Cathy Lanier in D.C. created quite a stir with a similar announcement a couple of weeks ago on 60 minutes. Hers is hypocritical, though, since she has only issued around 45 concealed carry licenses to date.
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I was wondering how states that are anti gun would handle this. I didn't know until I started carrying how gun friendly Indiana is (go Indiana!). I thought I'd find a link for the story. Notice how the cheif doesn't come out and say shoot the bastard, but it's kind of a wink, wink nod nod kinda thing. And he does mention 'what used to be a last resort...' They're also going to start holding free seminars on preparing yourself for terrorist attacks beginning next week - I think I'll go with my gf to see what they have to say.

Fighting back, police say, may be the way to survive a mass shooting | Fox 59
 
the video on the Washington post article doesn't work anymore - here's Lanier saying it on youtube video. Interesting that it's very similar to what the IMPD chief said, the difference being that it's fairly easy for people who don't have a criminal record to get a permit here. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in other parts of the country - especially if (god forbid) there are more shootings in the next few months.
 
Yes, it's encouraging to hear this tone. Please report back on the seminar--would be interested in hearing what approach he takes.
 
indyyy said:
So, we are now not only allowed but encouraged by law enforcement to step up and fight terrorists/killers.
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If you believe that any, or even every, Chief of Police in the whole state of Indiana has one iota of authority to allow or disallow one single aspect of use of deadly force laws in your state, you have much bigger problems to worry about than the potential of a terrorist attack anywhere near you.

State legislators define use of force laws. Law enforcement does just what their title implies, enforce the laws handed down to them by the law-makers.

indyyy said:
Before we were to use deadly force only for self defense and as a last resort.
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Assuming you're relating how the law actually reads, then remove the "Before" and change the "were" to "are" and the sentence will be correct.

A CoP doesn't simply stand on the balcony of his Ivory Tower and deem what the "new law" is going forward. Whether pro or anti, what you describe is a cop who thinks he makes law instead of enforcing it. Inevitably, if his diktat is allowed to stand by the powers that be within your state without any severe rebuke, it will lead to selective enforcement - maybe along racial lines, maybe along age lines, maybe along gender lines - but whatever line gets crossed, it will be because that self-appointed preemptive (yet, unqualified) defense attorney announced publicly and in his official capacity as the CoP, that he would get violators of the law off.

He (and a significant number of citizens within his jurisdiction) may think of himself as a benevolent dictator, but even a likable tyrant is still a tyrant. There's no such thing as a benevolent dictator if what he does to demonstrate his benevolence is steal the law from The People that was written to protect them and maintain an orderly society. Chaos in government will surely inure to chaos in the streets, and somebody's gonna end up taking a shot at people who have done nothing wrong, and then play that idiot CoP's announcement for the jury as his defense in court. When that happens, it will be a lose-lose proposition for all concerned, especially civil society though.

The guy should be ridden on a rail out of town, and out of his job.

Blues
 
No one needs to tell me anything, I fight shooters everyday. I strap on my twin widow makers and enforce my own brand of justice and morality. I don't need government sanctioning, all I need is a gun.
 
I agree with much of what you said BluesStinger. Each state's laws are different and one should know the laws. I also understand that from what you've posted in the past that you live fairly isolated from urban society while I live in a large city where we have shootings if not several shootings almost every day. Police, citizens and preachers have been concerned about this and having meetings for a year or so now to discuss how to deal with it. And because the ca event has been declared a terrorist attack things may change gradually and maybe even quickly if we have more of them. If ISIS has it's way attacks like the one in Ca. will become commonplace in the US like they are in Isreal now. I heard a report recently that Isreal deals with these better than any other country and they do so by involving it's citizens in the country's defense.

I go to the movies once a month or so with my gf and I often wonder, since I'm carrying, what I would do if a guy got up and started shooting with a hundred or so people in the theater with my gf and me. Or when I'm in the library what I would do if someone pulled out a gun and started shooting employees and patrons who are there with me and have no way of defending themselves.

Ca was just one attack, but if we start having attacks like this on a regular basis I certainly hope that citizens who manage to stop the attack and save some lives are treated like heroes and not thrown in jail and dragged through court.

At any rate, I heard on the radio about half an hour ago the NYPD calling on people who have gun permits and are trained to use guns to carry them when they're out and about. From what I've read in the rooms in the past, NY isn't a real gun pro state.

Again, I don't want to be a vigilante and go shoot the crazies- I'll leave that to Wild Dog- but it's certainly interesting that this kind of talk is coming from the PD in different parts of the country. While at the same time our president and the democrats keep pushing for more gun control.
 
No one needs to tell me anything, I fight shooters everyday. I strap on my twin widow makers and enforce my own brand of justice and morality. I don't need government sanctioning, all I need is a gun.
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The IMPD chief asked me to invite you to come do your thing in our malls Wild Dog. He says he'll back you up.:meeting:
 
indyyy said:
I go to the movies once a month or so with my gf and I often wonder, since I'm carrying, what I would do if a guy got up and started shooting with a hundred or so people in the theater with my gf and me. Or when I'm in the library what I would do if someone pulled out a gun and started shooting employees and patrons who are there with me and have no way of defending themselves.
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Recall the limited parts of your previous post that I replied to, this part being the more important to me:

Before we were to use deadly force only for self defense and as a last resort.
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If you fired your weapon(s) at a terrorist (or anybody else) who had entered a theater or library and started shooting everything in sight that moved, such an act would seemingly be consistent with the law as you described it in your "Before" statement above. When random shooting is going on, everyone within gun-shot range of the shooter would be justified in returning fire under nearly any self defense law in the country, especially inside a building where retreat, cover and hide, or otherwise avoiding the killer would probably be impossible. Although, even in that case, you may still run up against whatever GFZs laws a theater or library might be controlled by in Indiana. I have no idea about that latter point, but what I was trying to say is that there's no "before" or "after" concerning what the CoP said. Self defense was supported before he said it, and is still supported after he said it. Nothing he said should've had one iota of influence over how, when or why a shooter invoking self defense protections under the law is handled by anyone, including the CoP, in the [un]justice system. And no licensee should accept the CoP's word for it that they'll be given special dispensation for it if they start firing any way other than what can be legally justified within the law as it stands now. Certainly the CoP has every right to pursue changes in the state of the law as it stands now, I was just saying that he has no right or authority to dictate such changes and expect them to be implemented upon his dictates only.

As far as what you heard about the NYPD, I'm betting that the overwhelming majority of those eligible to carry outside their homes within the city limits of NYC, operate under a LEOSA permit, with a relative handful of exceptions of private citizens with inordinate amounts of political influence there also being allowed to carry (-cough- Donald Trump -cough-).

Blues
 
It's a non issue if someone is shooting at everyone in sight you return fire I personally would try and save as many as I could but that's me

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
indyyy said:
At any rate, I heard on the radio about half an hour ago the NYPD calling on people who have gun permits and are trained to use guns to carry them when they're out and about. From what I've read in the rooms in the past, NY isn't a real gun pro state.
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Was it the NYPD, or a sheriff in upstate NY?

N.Y. sheriff urges all people with permits to carry gun - NY Daily News

Ulster County, NY has a population of around 180,000. The Sheriff's office estimates there are around 10,000 license holders in the county (~5.5%), placing the county near the middle of the pack relative to license percentages in other states. However, it isn't clear how many of those are "proper cause" licenses allowing citizen carry without regard to employment or location.

SUPPORT, ANGER FOLLOW SHERIFF'S CALL TO ARMS
 
Sorry Blues, I misunderstood what you wrote in the first post. I now agree with you 100%. My saying before and now may just be my thinking when nothing has really changed as far as what a citizen can legally do. I guess it's hearing police chiefs / departments around the country calling on gun carrying citizens to act if they find themselves in a group of people faced with an attack. For law enforcement it may just be a way of giving potential terrorists something to worry / think about.

kwc - he talked briefly on fox news radio and i'm pretty sure i heard them say nyc, may have been suburbs or outskirts.
 
It's a non issue if someone is shooting at everyone in sight you return fire I personally would try and save as many as I could but that's me
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I pretty much agree. The one thing I can think of that could be bad is if there are several in the crowd that start shooting back one or all of them could be mistaken as being with the perpetrator(s) rather than someone who is fighting back.

I'm indian and so this probably concerns me more than the 'average' looking american because it's easy for some to mistake me for a mid easterner.
 
indyyy said:
I pretty much agree. The one thing I can think of that could be bad is if there are several in the crowd that start shooting back one or all of them could be mistaken as being with the perpetrator(s) rather than someone who is fighting back.

I'm indian and so this probably concerns me more than the 'average' looking american because it's easy for some to mistake me for a mid easterner.
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If you don't want to get shot, GET TRAINING!!! Your actions define your fate. The collective shoot-out between responding armed citizens is a myth. Getting shot because you do not know how to behave as an armed citizen yourself is a possibility though.

James Yeager | Active Shooter
 
At this point, anybody who DOESN'T advocate active resistance is at BEST a sympathizer and at worst an accomplice.

EVERY time animals like the two in San Bernardino try something they should be faced with the maximum force and violence, be it with guns or belt buckles.

The truth is that the jackals using these attacks to change the subject to fascistic gun controls are traitors giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I used to call the anti-gun cult "OSHA for rapists". They've no graduated to "OSHA for ISIS", seeking to create a "safe working environment" for mass murderers.
 
indyyy said:
I pretty much agree. The one thing I can think of that could be bad is if there are several in the crowd that start shooting back one or all of them could be mistaken as being with the perpetrator(s) rather than someone who is fighting back.

I'm indian and so this probably concerns me more than the 'average' looking american because it's easy for some to mistake me for a mid easterner.
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What tribe are you? I worked with a full-blooded Apache named Redfeather. Redfeather was the best d*** tracker I ever worked with. He could track anyone, anywhere over any terrain. If a shoplifter escaped off the mall premises, Redfeather always tracked them down and brought them back.
 
What tribe are you? I worked with a full-blooded Apache named Redfeather. Redfeather was the best d*** tracker I ever worked with. He could track anyone, anywhere over any terrain. If a shoplifter escaped off the mall premises, Redfeather always tracked them down and brought them back.
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Indian like the kind from India - my father brought my brothers and me to the US when I was 2 (my mom died in India while he was here studying medicine). I spent two years in Germany after high school and over there the kids my age thought only American Indians live in Indiana. It was fun trying to explain to them that I was an India Indian from Indiana - the thought blew their minds.
 
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