Citizen's Arrest

[theicemanmpls]

I carry to protect myself, and others who may be traveling with me. That's it. My primary firearm is a short-range revolver with limited ammo. I don't carry a BUG. If I am expecting trouble, I just don't go. I live in a decaying neighborhood, so I am always aware of my surroundings. I don't want any trouble. I practice shooting frequently. I carry to protect myself. That's it.

If the need arises to "load up for bear" I will do so. Until then, I wish to maintain a very low profile.

Because of my former career's, present, past interests, & training, I have the ability, knowledge and equipment to become a second, or third responder. If the SHITF in my community, I can be pressed into action. If asked, I am there.

Remember these words?
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I am one of "the people".

In the meantime, I will let the first responders do the responding. I will let the police do the policing.

If I am at the mall and some wacko starts shooting, I am getting myself, and family out of harms way first. If you wish to be a hero, I say have at it.

"Only fools rush in" --Elvis Presley.

 

[Alaska444]

I just completed my CCW class in Idaho where the instructor specifically cautioned against citizens arrests. CCW is for defensive purposes. We are not LEOs. He further cautioned that if the charges are later dropped, you as the arresting agent will be responsible for all court costs as well as open to civil lawsuits and possible false arrest charges. Our instructor who is a LEO himself stated just don't do it unless no other choice.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

I just completed my CCW class in Idaho where the instructor specifically cautioned against citizens arrests. CCW is for defensive purposes. We are not LEOs. He further cautioned that if the charges are later dropped, you as the arresting agent will be responsible for all court costs as well as open to civil lawsuits and possible false arrest charges. Our instructor who is a LEO himself stated just don't do it unless no other choice.

A word for word +1

 

[Aresye]

I carry to protect myself, and others who may be traveling with me. That's it. My primary firearm is a short-range revolver with limited ammo. I don't carry a BUG. If I am expecting trouble, I just don't go. I live in a decaying neighborhood, so I am always aware of my surroundings. I don't want any trouble. I practice shooting frequently. I carry to protect myself. That's it.

If the need arises to "load up for bear" I will do so. Until then, I wish to maintain a very low profile.

Because of my former career's, present, past interests, & training, I have the ability, knowledge and equipment to become a second, or third responder. If the SHITF in my community, I can be pressed into action. If asked, I am there.

Remember these words?
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I am one of "the people".

In the meantime, I will let the first responders do the responding. I will let the police do the policing.

If I am at the mall and some wacko starts shooting, I am getting myself, and family out of harms way first. If you wish to be a hero, I say have at it.

"Only fools rush in" --Elvis Presley.

I definitely respect that decision, but unsure who you are referring to when regarding a first responder. If it's a security team member, or an LEO, then I would do exactly the same as you. I'm curious what you would do in a situation in which there is no first responder, except possibly yourself. Would you call the cops, and wait for them to arrive? Part of the reason we've all decided to carry, is police response times, on average, can range from 10-45min. If things are violent from the start, or about to get violent, the whole situation could be over in less than a minute.

I'm not trying to be a hero, nor want to be one. I don't secretly hope to myself that something goes down, so I can stop it. As I've said before, I just can't abide watching somebody else suffer, while I have a means to defend them.

 

[Alaska444]

Defense of life is a different issue in many ways than citizens arrest. An interesting scenario was posited to us in my recent CCW class. What would you do if you were in a convenience store, in the bathroom and you come out to see the clerk held under gun point. What would you do? One of the issues brought up was unless you shoot a man in his mid brain center and cause instant cessation of life, a gun pointed at another person will likely go off by involuntary muscle contractions if you shoot the suspect. That could actually get the clerk killed or wounded and lead to a lawsuit against you by the clerk. One answer to what would you do was to go back in the bathroom and lock the door. The second response was to go to a defensive position in the back of the store and call 911 and secure your perimeter until LEOs arrive.

CCW's are not LEO's not do we have the same duties. If shots are already fired and you can intervene and in a sense help to preserve your own life and those around you, then you certainly have the right to do that, but to take it to the level of having an obligation to do that is in many ways above the CCW purpose and should be done with the consideration of the gravest consequences both civil and legal. My take home message from my two CCW classes that I have taken to date is that it is really for personal protection. Going beyond that is fraught with difficulties that are not at all well defined and are subject to the interpretation of those that will have weeks, months and years to critique what you did in a few seconds.

In reality, in a situation where shots have been fired and I was in a position to intervene even though my own life was not in danger at that time, I probably would but I would absolutely understand the quagmire I had just entered. This sort of scenario is much less defined for a CCW than say a Castle home defense scenario.

 

[mudpuppy]

I am with theicemanmpls & Alaska444 I did not get my CCW to be a cop. I spent 14 years serving my country and was ready to stand in the gap. But now I too carry light and for the purpose of protecting my self, my family, and my friends. I have had folks show up on my door step in trouble. I called the cops for them but had them wait out side. In today's world with every one looking to sue anyone over any thing I will not risk my life or livelihood or my family's well being for complete strangers. If we are in public and it hits the fan I would take cover and deal with the trouble that comes to find me. As to the argument of what if it was your loved one that needed help. We all carry and take personal responsibility for our safety not the cops or other citizens.

 

[theicemanmpls]

I definitely respect that decision, but unsure who you are referring to when regarding a first responder. If it's a security team member, or an LEO, then I would do exactly the same as you. I'm curious what you would do in a situation in which there is no first responder, except possibly yourself. Would you call the cops, and wait for them to arrive? Part of the reason we've all decided to carry, is police response times, on average, can range from 10-45min. If things are violent from the start, or about to get violent, the whole situation could be over in less than a minute.

I'm not trying to be a hero, nor want to be one. I don't secretly hope to myself that something goes down, so I can stop it. As I've said before, I just can't abide watching somebody else suffer, while I have a means to defend them.

In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection
Massad F. Ayoob
Massad F. Ayoob (Author)
› Visit Amazon's Massad F. Ayoob Page

 

[Aresye]

I'll definitely check that out once I get paid in a couple days.

I'm not trying to suggest that anybody should make a rash decision in a very complex situation. A situation in which shots have not been fired could become an extremely costly, and messy legal battle should one choose to interfere. I was more of going along with a shots fired scenario, when it's relatively clear this person means to do harm. Any other situation requires a very quick, but thorough analysis. That's why these kinds of topics and debates are good, because it can show somebody (like me), the big downside to carrying restrains of any kind, and the fact that the small advantage they might bring, is outweighed by a very large disadvantage, and thus, I have learned from it. Right now I'm not talking about trying to arrest anybody. Just want to see what other people's opinions are regarding where they stand on the defense of others. Obviously state laws differ, and thus a person may have a completely opposite viewpoint than mine, but generally across this board, members can be placed in a certain spectrum as to what level they will lend assistance. I'm sure there are those who are on the polar extremes of that spectrum, ranging from somebody who would walk away from a massacre they easily could stop, to a person driving his car into the bad parts of town at night, looking for trouble to stop.

 

[gun papa]

I am with theicemanmpls & Alaska444 I did not get my CCW to be a cop. I spent 14 years serving my country and was ready to stand in the gap. But now I too carry light and for the purpose of protecting my self, my family, and my friends. I have had folks show up on my door step in trouble. I called the cops for them but had them wait out side. In today's world with every one looking to sue anyone over any thing I will not risk my life or livelihood or my family's well being for complete strangers. If we are in public and it hits the fan I would take cover and deal with the trouble that comes to find me. As to the argument of what if it was your loved one that needed help. We all carry and take personal responsibility for our safety not the cops or other citizens.

I am in this camp. Well put.

 

[theicemanmpls]

I'll definitely check that out once I get paid in a couple days.

I'm not trying to suggest that anybody should make a rash decision in a very complex situation. A situation in which shots have not been fired could become an extremely costly, and messy legal battle should one choose to interfere. I was more of going along with a shots fired scenario, when it's relatively clear this person means to do harm. Any other situation requires a very quick, but thorough analysis. That's why these kinds of topics and debates are good, because it can show somebody (like me), the big downside to carrying restrains of any kind, and the fact that the small advantage they might bring, is outweighed by a very large disadvantage, and thus, I have learned from it. Right now I'm not talking about trying to arrest anybody. Just want to see what other people's opinions are regarding where they stand on the defense of others. Obviously state laws differ, and thus a person may have a completely opposite viewpoint than mine, but generally across this board, members can be placed in a certain spectrum as to what level they will lend assistance. I'm sure there are those who are on the polar extremes of that spectrum, ranging from somebody who would walk away from a massacre they easily could stop, to a person driving his car into the bad parts of town at night, looking for trouble to stop.

This is really getting silly.

 

[wjh2657]

I retired from 30 years active duty in USMC. Big portion of that spent in war zones or hot spots. I have many rows of ribbons on both sides of chest. Certifiable war hero. That was then. Now I just want to bask in the adulation of my grandchildren.

I carry a snub nosed 38 (S&W 642 or 640). I shoot the EDC guns weekly and their .22lr counterpart (S&W 317) daily. at<25 feet I am one deadly old geezer (sub 5" groups rapid fire) but I can't hit the broadside of a barn at 25 yards with this rig. Knowing this, I am well aware of my limitations. I am an old dog that you don't want to kick, but I am not a SWAT sniper.With the firepower I elect to carry I am limited to a closeup, last ditch defense and that is all I intend to get into. If the bad guy is at 15-25 yards I am going to hide or run (or both) and let the proper officials handle the situation.

I can't undo all the bad in the world, so I will concentrate on protecting my wife and myself.

How does this relate to post? If you pull gun to make citizen's arrest you have just given everybody else in sight good reason to start shooting at you. You are in the process of starting a gunfight. Think about it.

Scenario: I walk into store and see you pointing gun at clerk and a customer (don't see his gun) you have no uniform or badge. What would would be the soundest tactic if I decide to intercede? Answer: drop your sorry *** before you see me and can shoot at me. The more people involved the hairier it gets.

Best action: Hide and get on cell phone. Cops arrest/ citizens testify.

 

[agrippakc]

Rule I was taught was when you clear leather you are going to shoot. Period. You can't, and should not try to save the world.

 

[NCIC105]

Well, since this is a "What If" question....

If it happened, you better have an attorney on retainer....
Should not have pulled the weapon.
Should not have cuffed (zip tied) the husband.

False imprisonment comes to mind....

Since it is a what if....
What if the wife has mental issues and was hallucinating.
What if she was high on drugs, and he was trying to keep her from hurting herself.
We could go on with what if's, but I think; you get my point.

You don't have enough data to react in the manner you spoke of.
Calling 911 was correct, the rest in what will get you in trouble.

 

[agrippakc]

Citizens arrest= crap ton of trouble. You do realize that when you make a citizens arrest there are reports to fill out, lawyers will question you, you will be called to testify, and your testimony could screw a case that could have been a no brainer. Then there are potential liabilities that you open yourself up to by forcibly putting yourself into a bad situation. You cannot save the world, like if am eating my eggs at Wafflehouse and a robber comes in. If they are only cleaning out the register and are not shooting anyone then I keep eating my eggs. I am NOT Waffle security. They start shooting or threatening ME then they have another thing coming (my CCW permit is in my wallet after all). If you cannot determine when you should and shouldn't get involved then you should not be carrying a gun until you either a) grow up, b)get rid of that superman complex, c) get more professional CCW training.

 

[Samuel]

Domestic violence incidents are horrible situations to deal with as a private citizens with concealed carry or as a police officer. You always run the risk of being attacked by the intended victim and assailant. Trying to handcuff the suspect by yourself as a private citizen is riddled with several safety and legal implications that I would never do it off duty.

If you are going to handcuff someone while you have a firearm, I believe you need several hundred hours of training in how to handcuff properly, and several hundred more hours on how to defend yourself taking your gun from you while handcuffing. Can you confidently say that you are physically fit, have enough training, and have additional tools (baton, OC, Taser) at your disposal to defend yourself from someone attacking you while handcuffing them?

Getting caught with handcuffs or zip-ties may be interpreted as suspicious by law enforcement. It may seem far fetched but here is one example why I wouldn't do it. Someone sees you talking to a woman, who you just met, in the park and your gun is slightly exposed from the back and there have been possible rapes in the area. Police are called and conduct a voluntary questioning of you. You then admit to having a firearm on you, and submit to a voluntary search. The zip ties or handcuffs are discovered incident to the search. The woman is upset to find this out, since she just met you, and said you were, "acting nervous." You are then arrested for suspicion of rape due to the park having past rapes. You are held, your mouth swabbed for DNA, and you're released after the sample doesn't match the rape kit - if it were that easy. Now you just have the charge of rape on your record, that's if you're not held for several months during that time and loose your job while racking up a huge legal bill.

When you handcuff someone you also run into the legal implications if your handcuffs are too tight, hurting their arms or shoulders, you refuse to protect the suspect while they're in your care, and among other legalities.

Adding an extra step to the process beyond having the suspect at gun point will only increase the chances of charges or a lawsuit filed against you. Most likely you're not protected to the same degree as law enforcement officers from tort claims, so my advice is why risk it?

Your District Attorney, which is most likely an elected position, may feel an obligation to press charges against you due to outrage by the community, maybe their spouse. Maybe some opportunist lawyer may approach the suspect to get a piece of the dollars from and convince them they have a case? Well guess what, you're most likely not legally covered.

If the person runs off, I say let them with all the safety, criminal and civil implications resulting from a chase in today's world.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey wjh2657: Your reply #71 is spot on. Methinks that there are many computer/gun jockeys out there who, sitting at their computer in their underwear, believe they are Dirty Harry, but will dirty their underwear if an "incident" should present itself. You have convinced yourself, as I have, that there are limits to when, where, how etal you will use your firearm--period/end of story. I will go so far as to say, since it is only my wife and I, that once I am in my locked bedroom at night, I will not confront anyone outside of that room to supposedly save insured stuff that is replaceable, which I am not. I call 911, activate car alarm and wait and listen with a 12g and an FN 5.7x28 semi. Try and come into bedroom and you will leave very very differently. As you say in your reply, I will also run like hell and even avoid going to events if I feel they are potential problems and I will avoid parking in areas that leave that same feeling in me. Situational awareness is my priority when I am out and about, carrying or not carrying.

 

[Treo]

If you are going to handcuff someone while you have a firearm, I believe you need several hundred hours of training in how to handcuff properly, and several hundred more hours on how to defend yourself taking your gun from you while handcuffing. Can you confidently say that you are physically fit, have enough training, and have additional tools (baton, OC, Taser) at your disposal to defend yourself from someone attacking you while handcuffing them?

In Colorado it's an 8 hour class for security guards. I wouldn't carry handcuffs unless I was specifically required to do so by my job and if I were, I would never use them.

Getting caught with handcuffs or zip-ties may be interpreted as suspicious by law enforcement. It may seem far fetched but here is one example why I wouldn't do it. Someone sees you talking to a woman, who you just met, in the park and your gun is slightly exposed from the back and there have been possible rapes in the area. Police are called and conduct a voluntary questioning of you. You then admit to having a firearm on you, and submit to a voluntary search. The zip ties or handcuffs are discovered incident to the search. The woman is upset to find this out, since she just met you, and said you were, "acting nervous." You are then arrested for suspicion of rape due to the park having past rapes. You are held, your mouth swabbed for DNA, and you're released after the sample doesn't match the rape kit - if it were that easy. Now you just have the charge of rape on your record, that's if you're not held for several months during that time and loose your job while racking up a huge legal bill.

Of course had you simply asserted your rights and declined the voluntary questioning we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Just sayin'

 

[Nightmare45]

I am not going to arrest anyone that is the LEO's job, I am going to portect myself and my family.

 

[BC1]

Don't draw your firearm. Call 911 and watch. Let them know you're watching and LE has been called. Stay back unless you feel someone's life is in danger and understand the legal ramifications of what you're doing. In the scenario you posted the husband's actions are within the law in most states if the women is intoxicated, suicidal, etc. He may restrain her to prevent her from harming herself or others. There are affirmative defenses for this under the law. When you draw the gun with only a little bit of info, you have placed the husband in fear of his life thus allowing him to exercise deadly force against you. If you restrain someone wrongfully you could face a felony kidnapping rap in some states. Not to mention the civil consequences of making a citizens arrest. If he was justified you may find yourself facing charges of endangerment, menacing, assault, etc. This is precisely why Mas Ayoob recommends not getting involved. Suggested reading: "In The Gravest Extreme" by Mas Ayoob.

 

[17-AC]

After reading your post I would definitely advise against drawing your firearm or getting physically involved. There is no use of DPF [Deadly Physical Force, as we call it here in NY] being used in this situation. The basic rule is DPF meets DPF. If he doesnt have a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument [I know these definitions vary from state to state] even if he's grabbing or even hitting her, even if he is causing an injury [Not a serious physical injury]you would have a hard time explaining why you drew your firearm. Remember, you will be judged according to the "reasonable person" standard when using DPF, or any other type of force. Especially in any civil proceedings, should it come to that.

Reasonable in your stated scenario would be [to me]
1. Tell him to stop
2. Tell him your calling the police
3. Retreat into the house.
4. Try to keep the incident under observation and use your cell phones video/camera to record the incident.
5. When the police arrive, inform them of what you saw and recorded.