Church Carry


Why I carry to my Church: (Carrying in Church in Colorado is totally legal)
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P.S. My pastor knows. He totally endorses (AND ENCOURAGES) the practice.
 

I live in SC and as others have pointed out you need permission to carry in the church. I spoke to the head of 'security' at our church and after a frank exchange of philosophies he told me that he'd be glad to have me carry while in church. Our church is on the large side and I can imagine that it could be a target some day for a bad guy or two but they will have made a big mistake if they think it is a soft target.
 
I know this is an old thread, but I have to let all know what I found while reading the TX penal code... [Background] I go to a cowboy church so there is no problem carrying there, in fact the CHL class I took was at the church, but this was a different church so I called my pastor for a little guidance. He said that I would have to have permission from the minister before I could carry to the event. However, I did some reading I have included only the relevant parts of the statutes. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but this is what I found:

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

Sub section (b)
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(5) in an amusement park; or

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Sub Section (c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.



Sub section (f)
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

Sub Section (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

Notice that it is only illegal for CHL holders to carry at a hospital, church, amusement park, or government meeting if and only is there is signage stating the 30.06 statute.. Also the term premises excludes parking lost for schools. Just my 2 cents.

Please If I am wrong let me know I do not want to be breaking any laws!



Notice that it is only illegal for CHL holders to carry at a hospital, church, amusement park, or government meeting if and only is there is signage stating the 30.06 statute.. Also the term premises excludes parking lost for schools. Just my 2 cents.


You are correct except that I would add the sign has to be posted or someone standing at all entrances giving verbal warning that they do not allow guns in the church or handing out cards with the 30.06 info on them to everyone coming into the church. I doubt you will find that at many if any churches.
 
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

Sub section (b)
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

(5) in an amusement park; or

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.


From what you have written you are not allowed to carry your gun at church sign or no sign, and the pastor can not give you permission.
 
From what you have written you are not allowed to carry your gun at church sign or no sign, and the pastor can not give you permission.


In Texas the sign must be posted or written notice given to each person entering or verbal notice to each person entering. If the church does not do one of these three things then you may carry.
 
Interesting twist to my post above.. I will be preaching Sunday morning @ my church and I will be trying out my new IWB C-T.A.C holster. I feel much better with it then the the OWB that came with my 1911 a-1. I don't seem to print as much and I can tuck in my shirt.
 
The first day I attended my church I went to lunch wih the pastor and his wife. I informed him that my wife and I had Texas CHL's and had had PA CHL's for 20 years prior to that. They both welcomed us to carry in church and were happy to have the extra security (we also have several LEO's in the congregation). Tell your pastor. If he/she disagrees move on and to quote scripture " ...shake off the dust of your feet."
 
The first day I attended my church I went to lunch wih the pastor and his wife. I informed him that my wife and I had Texas CHL's and had had PA CHL's for 20 years prior to that. They both welcomed us to carry in church and were happy to have the extra security (we also have several LEO's in the congregation). Tell your pastor. If he/she disagrees move on and to quote scripture " ...shake off the dust of your feet."

Glad your pastor is on board with your discussion to carry in church. My pastor is aware that there are a lot of members that carry at our church. If I were attending a church that I was not sure how the pastor felt or if I attended a church and felt he was not in favor I would just keep quite about the fact I carried and continue to carry. It is easier to get forgiveness than permission. After all for the most part unless it is a close friend or family member the less people know you are armed the better. That way you are assured the element of surprise is on your side if you have an encounter with a BG.
 
The Texas church I attend: I carry (Currently a Diamondback DB380, thinner/as light as a P3AT or LCP, but works like a Glock, to be supplemented by a Microtech Archangel MCP 9mm [weighs 7.1 ounces], as soon as my dealer/Deacon gets one)

I'm carrying, plus all deacons have concealed handgun licenses and carry too, as well as the Pastor.
I can't tell you whether others in the congregation do or not, but they are welcome to, if licensed to.
A couple of us who rent tables at gun shows actually do some trading/swapping etc there while visiting with each other, so quite a few of us are carrying for a lawful purpose there anyway. There may be 50 or 60 guns at my church on any given Sunday.

We won't be putting up a 30.06 sign prohibiting.

Texas Penal Code - Section 46.035. Unlawful Carrying Of Handgun By License Holder
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Heck no we won't put up a sign
1) We're Texans
2) We hate rattlesnakes.
3 ) We want to be able to protect ourselves and our family and other church members from rattlenakes, whether it is human or reptilian. And, I'd hope that if another church member is in a position to protect our family and other church members from rattlenakes, they'd do it too.
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Off topic, but since mentioned:
School parking lots in Texas:


Any person apparently may have a gun in their car in Texas, according to Motorist Protection Act + Castle doctrine etc
Publication LS-16 by the Texas DPS states that "there is no law prohibiting a license holder from possessing a handgun in their vehicle in a school parking lot"

There is a Federal, and Texas (Education Code, not Penal Code) prohibition against using, threatening to use, ehibiting oor threatening to exhibit a gun in a "gun-free" zone and it's a third degree felony, which can by virtue of enhancement be a second degree felony.

Premises for conviction purposes refers to a building, and excludes parking lots, sidewalks etc, however, for the gun-free zone enhancement, the definition of premesis points to health and safety code which defines it as the real property, and all appurtenances ....

Leave it in the car, or stay in the car if wearing it.
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While true that
Penal Code Sec. 46.035
Sub section (f)
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

Be aware that:

THERE ARE: 2 definitions of "premises" for 2 purposes

Penal Code 46.03 refers to Penal Code § 46.035 (f)(3) for a definition BUT
PENAL CODE § 46.11(1) "Institution of higher education" and "premises"
have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety
Code.




Whereas regarding Penal Code 46.03 refers to Penal Code § 46.035 (f)(3)
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.


Here's a difference, and different defiinition pointed to regarding 46.11

Note that PENAL CODE § 46.11 PENALTY IF OFFENSE COMMITTED WITHIN WEAPON-FREE
SCHOOL ZONE(1) "Institution of higher education" and "premises"
have the meanings assigned by Section 481.134, Health and Safety
Code.

Texas Health & Safety Code - Section 481.134. Drug-Free Zones
§ 481.134. DRUG-FREE ZONES.
(a) In this section:
(4) "Premises" means real property and all buildings
and appurtenances pertaining to the real property.
(b) This section does not apply to an offense under Section
46.03(a)(1).


(For example, it's a 3rd degree felony to threaten to exhibit it or exhibit it in a school parking lot, which is NOT a Penal Code 46.03(1) offense, (carrying in a school building, or portion of a building) but is an offense under Texas Education Code 37.125 ... and for enhancement of penalty purposes, for licensed or unlicensed, the definition expanded to the "within 300 feet of the premises (real property) of a school " and could possibly be a second degree felony, instead of third degree, with the enhancement)


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/ED/htm/ED.37.htm
EDUCATION CODE
TITLE 2. PUBLIC EDUCATION
SUBTITLE G. SAFE SCHOOLS
CHAPTER 37. DISCIPLINE; LAW AND ORDER

Sec. 37.125. EXHIBITION OF FIREARMS. (a) A person commits an offense if, in a manner intended to cause alarm or personal injury to another person or to damage school property, the person intentionally exhibits, uses, or threatens to exhibit or use a firearm:

(1) in or on any property, including a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area, that is owned by a private or public school; or

(2) on a school bus being used to transport children to or from school-sponsored activities of a private or public school.

(b) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.



Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 260, Sec. 1, eff. May 30, 1995.

Amended by:

Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 704, Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2007.
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Do I carry concealed while taking the kids to or picking them up at school, yes, and I stay in the car. If I MUST exit my car, the gun stays in the car, concealed, not exhibited, just be careful it isn't seen while moving it off your person if you must do that.... or I remove it from my IWB holster and conceal it within my vehicle before entering school property if there's any chance I may need to get out of my car


I'm not a lawyer.
 
i had a discusion with my Pastor when I first got my permit. We talked about why i carry. he understood all the reasons. He knows that when I attend services with an untucked dress shirt that he's not to ask questions about my sloppy dress. I am actually considered by the Pastor to be "his" personal security detail. He has been keeping himself up to date with all the junk happening in chruches across the Country. i guess the bottom line in my Church is CCW is very much accepted. I'm not sure, but I am likely the only gun in the pew on Sunday morning.

To the OP,
not sure what to tell your brother. if he ccw's otside of church... whats his deal? He knows you ccw too. so, whats the beef with you carrying your 2nd amend rights into the Church?

The Bible says in Luke 22:36
he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

It seems to me that ones right to self protection was expected way back in Biblical times. Today when can safely assume the transition from a sword to a firearm. I believe that Christ would have used the word gun/firearm had there been such an item at that time. There were no guns back then, rather a sword.

Ope your Bible this Sunday morning and show your brother this passage in Luke. Then have a nice little discussion about it whit him.

In the end the both of you need to respect each others opinions on the matter.

This is the same debate I've had with my Dad. He's never carried his duty weapon into the church. Somehow, he feels its not right. I disagree, and carry every Sunday. (i prefer to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Also, I know that I shall stand someday in front of St. Peter to face my Judgement. A prospect that I have no fear of.)
 
I think the act of carring a gun in church is fine. I would be concermed your brother saw it print under you sweater. In my church I worry about someone giving me a unexpected hug and putting their hand on my gun. I would need my pasters permission leagally here in Ohio and would want him to know
 
RPB, Thanks for your detailed description of parking lots as related to schools. So basically if you stay in your car and are not fiddlin with your CCW then you should be good and if you get out of your car leave it in your vehicle. Makes sence. Great job on the post.

Back to the point of my post.. My new holster did everything I needed it to do. Concealed means concealed, after church my dad had lunch with us at the house and as I was going in to change my shirt, he noticed the butt of my 45 on my side (Had only my t-shirt on at this point) He had to ask if I had my gun during church and was surprised when I said yes. To be completely honest I never thought about the weapon on my side. I guess it has become a part of my "normal wardrobe" sooner than I thought it would.
 
Glad that new holster is working out well

Concealment:
Since I lost my "love handles" I have thought about a "bump in my shirt" too
That could just as well be an insulin pump bump under the shirt.
A bump under a shirt is a bump under a shirt.
A waist/fanny pack is a waist/fanny pack
A vest is a vest
But if it is not "concealed" per the legal definition of "concealed" that's another matter.

Motorist Protection Act ... pretty clear language "in plain view"
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/pdf/HB01815F.pdf

Q: What does "concealed" mean?
I agree with your statement, obvious to those of us who know the definition, "CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!"

But, for further clarification, to anyone ELSE reading this and asking later:

1) According to the actual legal definition:
Texas Government Code - Section 411.171. Definitions
(3) "Concealed Handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.


Note "openly discernible " "ordinary observation of a reasonable person" rather than "someone who knows you are a CHL and looking for a bump in your shirt"

2) According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, “‘Concealed’ means that the weapon cannot be visible, and that its presence cannot be discernible through ordinary observation. It is a criminal offense for a license holder to carry a handgun in plain view, or to intentionally fail to conceal the weapon.”

Here's a handy paragraph I keep as my guideline, but it isn't "Legal Advice":
A concealed handgun license holder who displays his or her handgun or otherwise intentionally reveals (or, "Exhibits?" or "unintentionally/accidently fails to conceal?" ... I don't know, I'm no Lawyer)
that he or she is carrying a concealed handgun is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor (TX PC § 46.035[a]).
If the weapon is displayed in a manner intended to cause alarm, the license holder is also guilty of a Class B misdemeanor (TX PC §42.01[a][8]),
unless the incident takes place on school property, in which case the license holder is guilty of a third degree felony (TX EDC §37.125[a]),
which could be enhanced to a second degree felony, PENAL CODE § 46.11.





My niece, in band, puts on a lot of shows in the school parking lot, that's a school activity, so I researched it a while back.

Now I don't know offhand the difference in "Exhibit" and "Failure to Conceal" and "display" but, since even I don't know, I'd hate for an ignorant teacher to call the ignorant school district police and me get arrested by the Ignorant School Police and face an Ignorant anti-gun jury with kids at that school, trying to prove a difference regarding Mens Rea/Intent (to "exhibit" or "Display" or "intentionally fail to conceal" or "intentionally display") and why 2 definitions of premesis are used and not to use the health and safety code definition to convict for an offense, but only to enhance a conviction which shouldn't occur if they used the Penal Code definition, and then selling my house to pay for an appeal, all because it was a windy day and my shirt blew up, and there's no way a jury, whose kids go to that school, and were in the parking lot that day which had the signs "Gun Free, Drug Free, Tobacco Free Zone" posted, would understand all that legal stuff.... The risk and weight of the penalty exceeds what I'm willing to spend to attempt to challenge/defend it.

At other places, if someone I don't know notices a bump in my shirt and mentions it, while I turn my holster side away from them, I guess I could say, oh excuse me, I better go to the bathroom and adjust my insulin pump. Or: "Oops, I'm glad my Colostomy Bag/urine bag didn't break, I better go to the bathroom and empty it or adjust it, want to join me in the bathroom?, It may smell bad, and might be embarassing for me, so we can talk later, OK?"

A bump in a shirt is a bump in a shirt.
Like you said, Concealed is concealed.
"Concealed Handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person
Only if the bump in the shirt is obviously a handgun, "openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person" there's a failure to conceal. But not because another CHL holder/person who knows you and knows you are a CHL holder is looking for, or notices, a bump in a shirt and knows why it is there, at church or elsewhere.

Also, another side-note:
Yesterday ... One news station says was a kid OFF CAMPUS (another news station says "on school property") at Austin High School, fired 9 shots into a car IN the School Parking lot. He's being charged as an adult, $500,000.00 bond
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I'm not a lawyer, that's my Layman's opinion, not legal advice.
 
Per SC law you are incorrect:

(9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body; or

You need permission but nothing says that it has to be in writing in order to be legal.
 
Wow.
Until everyone gets their State laws fixed in order to respect the constitutional rights to worship, and to bear arms, in order to protect that right to worship (from extremists, terrorists, or whomever,) I'm sure glad to live in Texas.
 

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