China Admits Burying U.S. POW

[HK4U]

And it appears to undercut the Pentagon's public stance that China returned all POWs it held inside China


This is the first crack in the dike. From what we can tell, the Pentagon has not aggressively followed up, either on the Desautels case or those of hundreds of other Americans for whom the Chinese should be able to account."

Gen. Mark W. Clark, the American commander of U.S.-led forces during the final stages of the Korean War, wrote in a 1954 account that "we had solid evidence" that hundreds of captive Americans were held back by the Chinese and North Koreans, possibly as leverage to gain a China seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Over time, however, U.S. officials muted their concerns, while periodically pressing the Chinese in private. Publicly, the Pentagon's stance today is that China returned all the U.S. POWs it held.

If this does not tick you off I don't know what will. I have heard for years that our buracrats from the top down have known about MIA's being held and have lied about it and covered it up. We send our boys to fight and die sometimes for reasons that are lies themselves and then we leave them to live out their lives in a foreign prison.

Link Removed

 

[toreskha]

This is something that we should follow up on and be more aggressive about in the future.

There's another side to it, though...

the Chinese and North Koreans withheld a number of U.S. POWs, possibly in retaliation for U.S. refusal to repatriate those Chinese and North Korean POWs who chose not to be returned to their home country out of fear of retribution.

The attitude of the NK and Chinese POWs was understandable, but by allowing them to stay we give the enemy an excuse to hold our own people. Who's worth more to us, some enemy POWs who might be spies or our own soldiers?

 

[festus]

Bring them all home!

We have a sacred duty to bring home every single American serviceman that has been deployed to a hostile combat environment. Even if this means searching for years after battles are won or lost. We owe it to the families and we owe it to the HONOR of those who have fallen or have been taken prisoner...

LEST WE FORGET!
POWMIA

 

[toreskha]

We have a sacred duty to bring home every single American serviceman that has been deployed to a hostile combat environment. Even if this means searching for years after battles are won or lost. We owe it to the families and we owe it to the HONOR of those who have fallen or have been taken prisoner...

LEST WE FORGET!
POWMIA

Do we have somewhere a reliable accounting of how many are still missing or otherwise? Seems like there should be a big list, or a system of lists.

 

[festus]

There Is a National Database

Do we have somewhere a reliable accounting of how many are still missing or otherwise? Seems like there should be a big list, or a system of lists.

There is a Natl. Database of POW/MIA. I don't have the link yet, but I will get one.

 

[festus]

I have two namesakes in the POW/MIA database

POW/MIA Databases & Documents (Federal Research Division: Customized Research and Analytical Services, Library of Congress)
Link Removed

I have Two namesakes listed in the POW/MIA databases. This is very near and dear to my heart. I served for over 20 years but never did I give what these two fine Americans did. I want them back! The U.S. Government now has proof that our enemies of days gone by have been less than honest about this issue.

I demand Action!

I want all my fellow veterans to raise a ruckus until we bring them all home with honor.

Name Status War Service Date State of Residence More Info
HAGEN, CRAIG LOUIS BB VietNam War USA 1965/06/10 CA More Info
HAGEN, RONALD WAYNE POW Korean War USA 12/1/50 ND More Info

Ronnie...Craig... This is for you!

 

[HK4U]

The following may be of interest.

Link Removed

 

[toreskha]

I have Two namesakes listed in the POW/MIA databases. This is very near and dear to my heart. I served for over 20 years but never did I give what these two fine Americans did. I want them back! The U.S. Government now has proof that our enemies of days gone by have been less than honest about this issue.

I demand Action!

I want all my fellow veterans to raise a ruckus until we bring them all home with honor.

I agree we should do everything possible to find these guys, if they can be found. At some point (maybe in the far future, at the rate they're going), the Chinese, Vietnamese and Koreans are going to hand over all of the remains that they have. Hopefully McCain could launch an active initiative to recover these.

After we account for all that can be accounted for, there will still be some missing. In some cases, villagers would bury soldiers from any side that died - and most of those villagers have probably since died themselves. Maybe we could use some sort of ground-penetrating radar from the air and have a computer resolve images that show skeletal structures consistent with non-asians. Unless there's reason to believe one of our soldiers is buried in a particular spot, we wouldn't want to go digging up their cemeteries.

 

[IheartTedNugent]

I agree we should do everything possible to find these guys, if they can be found. At some point (maybe in the far future, at the rate they're going), the Chinese, Vietnamese and Koreans are going to hand over all of the remains that they have. Hopefully McCain could launch an active initiative to recover these.

After we account for all that can be accounted for, there will still be some missing. In some cases, villagers would bury soldiers from any side that died - and most of those villagers have probably since died themselves. Maybe we could use some sort of ground-penetrating radar from the air and have a computer resolve images that show skeletal structures consistent with non-asians. Unless there's reason to believe one of our soldiers is buried in a particular spot, we wouldn't want to go digging up their cemeteries.

The shear idea of finding every servicemen/servicewoman who has been taken POW/MIA is impossible. I personally wish every one of them could be brought back home, alive, and given a medal. Unfortunatley it will not be that way.

We should honor them the best we can and never forget what they have done for us.

As for the ground penetrating radar bone finder consistent with non asians.......that sounds a little to Sci-Fi for me.....

 

[festus]

I Heart Ted N. is right.

The shear idea of finding every servicemen/servicewoman who has been taken POW/MIA is impossible. I personally wish every one of them could be brought back home, alive, and given a medal. Unfortunatley it will not be that way.

We should honor them the best we can and never forget what they have done for us.

As for the ground penetrating radar bone finder consistent with non asians.......that sounds a little to Sci-Fi for me.....

Technology is not the answer. This will take a Human Intelleigence effort (HUMINT) the like of which have not been seen since the cold war. It will also take years of research in Russian, Chinese, and North Korean Archives to decipher and determine the whereabouts and final resting places of our comrades.

As for ground penatraiting radar...the technology does not exist as an airborne asset. We will need it to find individual gravesites but it cannot and will not determine ethniciticy. It sends a shockwave though the ground from a cannon shell and locates returns with different density. It does not scan and does not show orientation of bones.

BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!

 

[KimberD]

Good morning all. I am posting for the first time here. I enjoy reading on this forum very much.

I got an eerie feeling reading this thread. When I was in grade school in Michigan(I am 40-something now), I had a teacher whose son was a POW. For many years I wore a silver bracelet on my wrist that bore his name & other military identification on it. She sold these to people in an effort to raise money to find her son. She was a wonderful teacher. I do remember a haunting sadness in her eyes, however.

After reading this post, I decided to google "POWMIA list" and came up with the following link: E Bios Index. It was strange to read his information, "Lt. Walter Estes, Jr." exactly as I remember him on my bracelet. I already knew that his remains were found, providing some closure for my beloved teacher. She passed away many years ago but at least she was able to bury her son before she did.

I like the fact that there are people that still feel these issues are more important than who won American Idol this week.

I hope the link provides some help for anyone interested.

Take Care.

 

[toreskha]

Technology is not the answer. This will take a Human Intelleigence effort (HUMINT) the like of which have not been seen since the cold war. It will also take years of research in Russian, Chinese, and North Korean Archives to decipher and determine the whereabouts and final resting places of our comrades.

That's assuming they kept records, and once we get access to those records. NK doesn't seem to be too cooperative right now.

As for ground penatraiting radar...the technology does not exist as an airborne asset. We will need it to find individual gravesites but it cannot and will not determine ethniciticy. It sends a shockwave though the ground from a cannon shell and locates returns with different density. It does not scan and does not show orientation of bones.

It's not something that exists now...all I'm saying is there's always going to be some people missing. If you want to find everyone who died in battle in remote villages, then you'd have to wait until something far-out becomes reality.

 

[festus]

This is the point

That's assuming they kept records, and once we get access to those records. NK doesn't seem to be too cooperative right now.


It's not something that exists now...all I'm saying is there's always going to be some people missing. If you want to find everyone who died in battle in remote villages, then you'd have to wait until something far-out becomes reality.

POW's have been tracked to Russia, China, North Korea and Laos. many were not returned because of contempt or intelligence value. Many were tortured to death in ways to hideous to fathom. We as a nation need to demand an accounting of those not returned. Any answer that has eveidence to the contrary should be brought to the table for sanctions and possible retribution. It is time to let these petty thugs know we want them back or a resonable answer as to why not. You cannot in good consious just say that people will go missing in wars. We have a duty as Americans to never leave a man behind. We all need to be on the same page about this.

 

[HK4U]

MIA's

POW's have been tracked to Russia, China, North Korea and Laos. many were not returned because of contempt or intelligence value. Many were tortured to death in ways to hideous to fathom. We as a nation need to demand an accounting of those not returned. Any answer that has eveidence to the contrary should be brought to the table for sanctions and possible retribution. It is time to let these petty thugs know we want them back or a resonable answer as to why not. You cannot in good consious just say that people will go missing in wars. We have a duty as Americans to never leave a man behind. We all need to be on the same page about this.

One place to start would be to quit giving most favorable trade status to these nations and stop giving aid and money to them.

 

[toreskha]

POW's have been tracked to Russia, China, North Korea and Laos. many were not returned because of contempt or intelligence value. Many were tortured to death in ways to hideous to fathom. We as a nation need to demand an accounting of those not returned. Any answer that has eveidence to the contrary should be brought to the table for sanctions and possible retribution. It is time to let these petty thugs know we want them back or a resonable answer as to why not. You cannot in good consious just say that people will go missing in wars. We have a duty as Americans to never leave a man behind. We all need to be on the same page about this.

I agree that we should try for 100% recovery - either actual remains or an explanation of some sort. We should be able to get the vast majority (99% or better) back. And, key to our success would be starting a serious effort ASAP, as the people involved are getting older and dying off every day.

The government should attempt to get all of the information available together in one place, and approach the friendlier countries (China, Vietnam) first. If we have success there, we could then use them and their experience with the process to pressure NK to offer up anything they might have.

The flip side of course is that we would need to reciprocate with anything that we have.

 

[festus]

At least we are honest about detainees

I agree that we should try for 100% recovery - either actual remains or an explanation of some sort. We should be able to get the vast majority (99% or better) back. And, key to our success would be starting a serious effort ASAP, as the people involved are getting older and dying off every day.

The government should attempt to get all of the information available together in one place, and approach the friendlier countries (China, Vietnam) first. If we have success there, we could then use them and their experience with the process to pressure NK to offer up anything they might have.

The flip side of course is that we would need to reciprocate with anything that we have.

We are wide open about Gitmo and detention camps like Abu Graib. I don't think we'll have an ethics problem just a problem with lying former enemies who refuse to give up the truth because it will shred what little bit of credibility they might have with the UN and other global networks.