Carrying Concealed in Malls

[achalmers]

I'm from Michigan and a new CPL holder. I noticed that Laurel Park mall in Livonia, MI has a tiny code of conduct sign posted just inside the doors of the mall. Rule #20 is: Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.

I actually found the list on their site: Link Removed

My question is can I still carry concealed at this mall? I think I should be able to. I'm not displaying my pistol, although I am "carrying" it. There's this thing called the 2nd amendment that should supersede the mall's code of conduct, plus I have a CPL. Any thoughts on this?

AC

 

[sbubrick]

Check Michigan state firearms laws! If its concealed how would they know! In Nevada if they see they can ask you to leave, if you do not they can have you removed for trespassing, Sign or no sign!

 

[achalmers]

There is no language in any way, shape or form in MCL 28.425o that says a CPL holder cannot carry in a mall.

MSP - Pistol Free Areas

 

[GB-Boater]

Check Michigan state firearms laws! If its concealed how would they know! In Nevada if they see they can ask you to leave, if you do not they can have you removed for trespassing, Sign or no sign!

Wisconsin is the same.

 

[mesaexplorerbc1]

Anyone else notice that the very last lines in their rules state a complete contradiction of rule 20?

This “Behavioral Code of Conduct” is not intended to deprive any person of their applicable civil rights or liberties under the law.
If you feel your rights are being violated, please notify the mall management office. - See more at: Link Removed

Here in Oregon, (and IANAL) signs don't carry force of law, so it's only a trespass offense if you refuse to leave. I normally open carry, but on the rare occasion I have to visit a mall here, I will conceal it to avoid issues. Never had a problem with it.

 

[Bikenut]

I'm from Michigan and a new CPL holder. I noticed that Laurel Park mall in Livonia, MI has a tiny code of conduct sign posted just inside the doors of the mall. Rule #20 is: Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.

I actually found the list on their site: Link Removed

My question is can I still carry concealed at this mall? I think I should be able to. I'm not displaying my pistol, although I am "carrying" it. There's this thing called the 2nd amendment that should supersede the mall's code of conduct, plus I have a CPL. Any thoughts on this?

AC

We do have the 2nd Amendment... and in Michigan we even have Article 1 Section 6 of Michigan's Constitution that reads:

STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963


§ 6 Bearing of arms.

Sec. 6.

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(p...spx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Article-I-6

But there is also a thing called "private property rights" and private property rights trump the right to bear arms (and trumps a carry permit too) for a business in the same way private property rights lets you make the rules for your home and yard.. ("open to the public" doesn't change the fact that the business is still private property) and while business owners get to make the rules for their businesses there are some lawfully protected classes of people that businesses must allow on/in their property but gun carriers are NOT one of them!

There is some controversy as to whether the trespass laws in Michigan consider a "no guns" sign as sufficient notice that folks carrying guns in violation of that sign are also violating the trespass laws... but, as always, please consider what would be your defense in court if you were arrested? Would the judge and/or jury consider the sign sufficient notice?

Now here are a couple of questions for those who say just carry in anyway because if it's concealed no one will know...................

-Why would anyone support a business that bans guns by spending money there? Why not spend your money at a business that doesn't ban guns instead of helping the gun banner make enough money to open yet another business and ban guns there too?

-Why would anyone expect their right to bear arms be respected when they are willing to disrespect the property owner's equally as valid right to ban the bearing of arms by sneaking in a concealed gun? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[InsulinRage]

I'm from Michigan and a new CPL holder. I noticed that Laurel Park mall in Livonia, MI has a tiny code of conduct sign posted just inside the doors of the mall. Rule #20 is: Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.

I actually found the list on their site: Link Removed

My question is can I still carry concealed at this mall? I think I should be able to. I'm not displaying my pistol, although I am "carrying" it. There's this thing called the 2nd amendment that should supersede the mall's code of conduct, plus I have a CPL. Any thoughts on this?

AC

Well, according to Handgunlaws.us.
For Michigan.
Places Off-Limits Even With A Permit/License
28.425o. Amended Premises on Which Carrying Concealed Weapon Prohibited; “Premises” Defined;
Exceptions to Subsection (1); Violation; Penalties.
1. *Schools or school property but may carry in the while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off
or picking up if a parent or legal guardian. (Act 719 allows carry in parking lots. See below) Handgunlaw.us 4
2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing
agency.
3. Sports arena or stadium
4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the
premises
5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of
worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or
more
7. A hospital
8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
9. A Casino
10. Premises does not include parking areas of the above places 1 thru 9.

Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:
"Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by
judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior
approval consistent with the court’s written policy."

 

[achalmers]

Is my pistol private property too, or no? I didn't realize private property rights applied to a mall. I never thought of a mall as being private property. Good points...thank you.

 

[Bikenut]

Is my pistol private property too, or no? I didn't realize private property rights applied to a mall. I never thought of a mall as being private property. Good points...thank you.

I am not an attorney.. the following is my understanding of how private property rights work.

While your pistol is your "personal" property private property rights don't extend to your "personal" property in the same manner as they do to your "private property".

Basically, if a property is owned by any entity other than a government entity (even if that property is "open to the public") then the owners have the private property right to make any rules/policies they wish (within existing law) that denies, limits, restricts, or controls, the behavior of anyone who is on/in that property... even if they were invited ("open to the public" is an invitation to shop the same as your invitation to your buddy to come to your house to play cards) on/in that private property.

And the trespass laws exist in order to put legal teeth into the rule/policies private property owners have.

But if the property is owned by a unit of government then things get weird because in some States that unit of government might be able to have ordinances (laws) that prohibit some activities.... like carrying guns. Some States have laws that prevent local units of government from doing that requiring all units of government within the State follow State law.

So.... know your State's laws! All of the laws and how they interact with each other. If push comes to shove... consult a real life attorney!

 

[webslave]

The land, the buildings; all owned by an "entity" and thus considered "private property". There are businesses in my area (PA) that have such signs posted. Not a problem, I take our money elsewhere. There are plenty of business establishments around that are either gun friendly, or at least, neutral and appreciate the money coming from wallet below the small of back holster for the PPKs that I carry as much as money from anywhere else. They don't like my gun (nor the free protection armed citizens provide), they obviously don't like my money, either. I see no point in provocation and legal testing as to who is more "right". They don't like my weapon, they don't like my money and I leave it at that.

 

[The_Outlaw]

The land, the buildings; all owned by an "entity" and thus considered "private property". There are businesses in my area (PA) that have such signs posted. Not a problem, I take our money elsewhere. There are plenty of business establishments around that are either gun friendly, or at least, neutral and appreciate the money coming from wallet below the small of back holster for the PPKs that I carry as much as money from anywhere else. They don't like my gun (nor the free protection armed citizens provide), they obviously don't like my money, either. I see no point in provocation and legal testing as to who is more "right". They don't like my weapon, they don't like my money and I leave it at that.

Exactly correct!

If my 2nd-Amendment Right's are not welcome, then me & my money are not welcome either.

They can bugger off as far as I am concerned, because there are plenty of other places that I can shop at.

 

[achalmers]

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. As webslave said earlier, "I see no point in provocation and legal testing as to who is more 'right'." I suppose I can leave my gun in the car or just not frequent that mall unless I have to.

 

[golddigger14s]

Real simple, don't give your money to places that don't respect your beliefs what ever they are (in this case 2A). Let the sheeple get mowed down in another unarmed victim zone. I hate malls in the first place, and their little no gun sticker makes it so much easier to not go in.

 

[mojoman]

I just ignore those no gun sign and conceal carry, they will never know and if something happen and if my and my family life is in jeopardy I will use it and suffer the cost but my life will be save.

 

[sdprof]

Two points I'll make on the topic.

1 - 2nd Amendment doesn't affect private entities - it's a protection against government action. (Yeah, it's working really well, isn't it?)

2 - If you enter the mall through most any of the big anchor stores, you will most likely not see any such itty bitty out of sight rules of behavior. Plausible deniability.

 

[Bikenut]

I just ignore those no gun sign and conceal carry, they will never know and if something happen and if my and my family life is in jeopardy I will use it and suffer the cost but my life will be save.

Two points I'll make on the topic.

1 - 2nd Amendment doesn't affect private entities - it's a protection against government action. (Yeah, it's working really well, isn't it?)

2 - If you enter the mall through most any of the big anchor stores, you will most likely not see any such itty bitty out of sight rules of behavior. Plausible deniability.

I guess I don't understand the perspective of sneaking a concealed gun into a business where the property owner has exercised his valid right to ban guns.

I asked these questions before but I'll ask them again.........

-Why would anyone support a business that bans guns by spending money there? Why not spend your money at a business that doesn't ban guns instead of helping the gun banner make enough money to open yet another business and ban guns there too?

-Why would anyone expect their right to bear arms be respected when they are willing to disrespect the property owner's equally as valid right to ban the bearing of arms by sneaking in a concealed gun? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[Geosan1030]

First. As previously stated, The Second Amendment does not extend to private business.

Not sure about the law up there, but here in Kentucky, a 'no gun' sign does not have the force of law. You can not be charged with anything should you ignore it. What you can be charged with is 'trespassing' if you are asked to leave and refuse to. As I understand the law, having the firearm automatically bumps the charge to a 'D' felony instead of a misdemeanor.

As for doing business with places that don't share your beliefs: while I try to do business in places that don't post a sign, quite simply convenience and availability may outweigh other considerations.

Further, where does it stop? I frequent a Middle Eastern deli that has some of the best gyros I've ever had. I most certainly do not share many beliefs with the owners and other patrons. Does that mean I stop shopping there? By the way, he is not posted as a no gun zone.

Quite simply, as I always carry concealed, I carry where I can legally carry (places not specifically excluded in the statute) and I shop and do business where I want. If there a particular merchant who is obnoxious about it, they get a card and I avoid them when I can.

 

[Bikenut]

First. As previously stated, The Second Amendment does not extend to private business.

Not sure about the law up there, but here in Kentucky, a 'no gun' sign does not have the force of law. You can not be charged with anything should you ignore it. What you can be charged with is 'trespassing' if you are asked to leave and refuse to. As I understand the law, having the firearm automatically bumps the charge to a 'D' felony instead of a misdemeanor.

As for doing business with places that don't share your beliefs: while I try to do business in places that don't post a sign, quite simply convenience and availability may outweigh other considerations.

Further, where does it stop? I frequent a Middle Eastern deli that has some of the best gyros I've ever had. I most certainly do not share many beliefs with the owners and other patrons. Does that mean I stop shopping there? By the way, he is not posted as a no gun zone.

Quite simply, as I always carry concealed, I carry where I can legally carry (places not specifically excluded in the statute) and I shop and do business where I want. If there a particular merchant who is obnoxious about it, they get a card and I avoid them when I can.

Rewarding a gun banner by spending money at his business just because he has something we want or is "convenient" doesn't do anything to change his mind about banning guns. But buying stuff from his competitor who doesn't ban guns... and then sending a copy of the receipts from those purchases to the gun banner explaining why he lost all that revenue might have an impact.

And sneaking a gun in where a property owner has exercised his property right to ban guns just seems..... selfishly sneakily hypocritical.

So perhaps the perspective isn't one of "where does it stop" but is one of "where does standing up for the right to bear arms with personal actions begin"?

But then.... each of us has to decide if "convenience" and "availability" and disrespecting the property owner's right to ban guns by sneaking in a gun are more important than standing up for the right to bear arms while respecting the rights of others.

 

[wolf_fire]

I'm from Michigan and a new CPL holder. I noticed that Laurel Park mall in Livonia, MI has a tiny code of conduct sign posted just inside the doors of the mall. Rule #20 is: Carrying or displaying weapons of any kind except those carried by certified law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.

I actually found the list on their site: Link Removed

My question is can I still carry concealed at this mall? I think I should be able to. I'm not displaying my pistol, although I am "carrying" it. There's this thing called the 2nd amendment that should supersede the mall's code of conduct, plus I have a CPL. Any thoughts on this?

AC

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf Go to page 7 and it speaks of MI law concerning the legality of "no gun signs".

According to my read, you are not allowed to carry concealed or others by what you say is listed on their sign.

Now if you wish to be disarmed and choose to spend money in a business that takes away your rights, then that is your decision. My reaction to that would be :blink:

 

[Geosan1030]

Rewarding a gun banner by spending money at his business just because he has something we want or is "convenient"

You're not rewarding anyone for just doing business with them. You reward them if you do business with them because they have a sign in the window.

And sneaking a gun in where a property owner has exercised his property right to ban guns just seems..... selfishly sneakily hypocritical

Actually, it's overtly hypocritical. And, I'm ok with that.

See, as Americans we make a lot of decisions everyday. And, we have a lot of choices when we make those decisions. Some, will necessarily, run afoul of each other or seem hypocritical. That's just something we have to deal with.

In this particular case, I struggle with my decision to arm myself in the mall. Because, the operators of the mall do have their property rights and they do have the right to exclude whomever or whatever they want (or, do they?). But, they also have an obligation to protect me when I enter their facility. I balance their right to exclude vs. their ability to protect me. If I find their ability to protect me wanting, I may carry or I may decide not to shop there. My choice. I find that Amazon's Prime Membership does wonders for satisfying my instant gratification gene. But, occasionally, I go to the mall...and I do carry. Hypocritical? Yes.