Canton, OH Stop Revisited w/ Police Trainer


TekGreg

New member
As a benefit to the firearms forum community, I took it upon myself to contact a police officer I know regarding the Canton, OH CCW stop. He is a training officer for regular officers and SWAT for over a dozen years, and also currently teaches the CCW class in Ohio. He gave me permission to quote him on his response when I told him I wished to get an official answer back to the readers of the forum.

First off, my officer's response about the Canton, OH officer's behavior: "He's an a$$hole. However, law enforcement has a failure rate of 2-3% (officers like the one in the video) and corporate America has a failure rate of 25%, so police recruiting is doing about 10 times better than the business average. The problem is we hire humans, and there will always be some failures that slip through all the screening that we do. The good news is that they will eventually do something like the officer in the video and be fired for it."

Next, as far as immediate notification of CCW: "The first words out of your mouth should be "I have a CCW" as you hand BOTH your CCW and your license to the officer. Keep your CCW with your license so you can draw them as one and hand them with the CCW on TOP. Do not start with, 'Officer' or 'Hello' as this gives a chance for the officer to interrupt you. If you are still told to shut up, you should keep your license and CCW held out towards the officer and comply with his instructions. You can only do the best you can under the circumstances."

Final notes from my officer: "I hope everyone will remember that this is a training problem with the officers and 97-98% of the time will NOT happen! I am adding this video to my officer training set as an example of how not to handle a CCW stop and the perfect way to get fired. If you are unlucky enough to be stopped by someone like this officer, do exactly what the driver in the video did - stay cool, agree with the officer, follow his commands, and settle it the next day with attorneys and his superiors."

On my phone call to my officer, he said that the communication center in Ohio should always inform the officer that the tag they are pulling over is attached to a person who has a CCW, so in Ohio, the officer should already know. But this doesn't relieve your duty to inform. When you inform, you basically show the officer that you know the law and intend to comply, which means you are law-abiding and are probably not going to pull the weapon on him. It's a courtesy for the safety of the officer. However, in my officer's own words: "We are trained police officers. We are supposed to treat every stop as if the driver and passengers are armed. It should not surprise an officer that you are carrying and he definitely shouldn't over-react like the officer in the video."

I hope this clarifies it for some people and puts some answers to the grey areas. If you have any questions that still exist, especially for Ohio CCW carriers, post them in response to this and I'll pass them along to my training officer for his comment.
 

G50AE

Well-known member
Next, as far as immediate notification of CCW: "The first words out of your mouth should be "I have a CCW" as you hand BOTH your CCW and your license to the officer. Keep your CCW with your license so you can draw them as one and hand them with the CCW on TOP. Do not start with, 'Officer' or 'Hello' as this gives a chance for the officer to interrupt you. If you are still told to shut up, you should keep your license and CCW held out towards the officer and comply with his instructions. You can only do the best you can under the circumstances."

Wouldn't it be easier just to flash your CCW Badge?
 

father-of-three

New member
What you say makes sense. It is a different flavor of muscle memory to not allow police to scare oneself into not remembering to do the right thing. I think people, myself included, worry about being on the negative end of that 3%. Sometimes it seems that people are at the mercy of a police officer's bad day, hoping for objectivity and fairness, but only getting the officer's opinion and emotional state in which the citizen suffers as a result. To be fair, police officers have bad days like the rest of us, but to take it out like in the Canton video is just plain wrong.
 

FloridaBlue

New member
But this doesn't relieve your duty to inform. When you inform, you basically show the officer that you know the law and intend to comply, which means you are law-abiding and are probably not going to pull the weapon on him.

Most CHL holders I know HAVE their licenses because they ARE law abiding citizens. This whole Ohio immediately notify law is complete crap and needs to be removed immediately as it just gives police total ambiguity as to when "immediate" is.
 

Deserteagle

New member
As many times as I say it, many people still fail to understand or they simply refuse to believe that only 1-3% of cops are the "bad" ones. Every day there are thousands of police-citizen interactions in all 50 states, 24/7/365, and only the ones that make mistakes are on the news.

Good advice from your friend.
 

TekGreg

New member
Wouldn't it be easier just to flash your CCW Badge?

In Ohio, our CCW classes were told to NEVER buy one of the CCW badges as they can be considered "Impersonating a Law Enforcement Officer" and get you in a lot more trouble than the need to inform. No one in Ohio is supposed to be flashing a badge except actual law enforcement officers (LEO).
 

TekGreg

New member
As many times as I say it, many people still fail to understand or they simply refuse to believe that only 1-3% of cops are the "bad" ones. Every day there are thousands of police-citizen interactions in all 50 states, 24/7/365, and only the ones that make mistakes are on the news.

Good advice from your friend.

Great point, DesertEagle! Last time I got pulled over, I informed immediately and the officer didn't even look up from his pad. He drawled towards me, "Are ya gonna shoot me wit' it?" "No, hadn't planned on it!" I replied. "Good, then jes keep yer hands off'n it an' we'll be good." was his whole response. And he never even looked at me. Hardly could be considered a bad attitude! The hundreds of thousands of stops every day that go like mine will never make Youtube and those are the ones that almost every one of us will be involved in. Just don't panic and make it into more than it has to be! :biggrin:
 

TekGreg

New member
Most CHL holders I know HAVE their licenses because they ARE law abiding citizens. This whole Ohio immediately notify law is complete crap and needs to be removed immediately as it just gives police total ambiguity as to when "immediate" is.

We're working on it, FloridaBlue, but like everything else political, it takes a LOT of time!
 

TekGreg

New member
What you say makes sense. It is a different flavor of muscle memory to not allow police to scare oneself into not remembering to do the right thing. I think people, myself included, worry about being on the negative end of that 3%. Sometimes it seems that people are at the mercy of a police officer's bad day, hoping for objectivity and fairness, but only getting the officer's opinion and emotional state in which the citizen suffers as a result. To be fair, police officers have bad days like the rest of us, but to take it out like in the Canton video is just plain wrong.

Father, the good thing to remember is that, just like officer Canton, OH, those evil 1-3% can only do that ONCE if we do what we're supposed to do. As my officer said, they WILL be weeded out and fired, but we have to turn them in when these things happen. If we help to enforce the law on BOTH sides, the public benefits every time. :pleasantry:
 

Deanimator

New member
As my officer said, they WILL be weeded out and fired, but we have to turn them in when these things happen.
Not so much.

It depends ENTIRELY upon where you are. There are places (like Chicago, New Orleans and Philadelphia) where a Harless can not only get by, he can PROSPER. If he's in the right environment, a cop can shoot an unarmed man, lie about it, get found out, and still get promoted. It happened in Chicago with Officer Alvin Weems. He murdered a guy and got promoted to detective. He recently ate his own gun... YEARS after the crime, and while an active cop.

Don't kid yourself about "bad apples" getting "weeded out". It took Weems "weeding" HIMSELF out.
 

Hamilton Felix

New member
As many times as I say it, many people still fail to understand or they simply refuse to believe that only 1-3% of cops are the "bad" ones. Every day there are thousands of police-citizen interactions in all 50 states, 24/7/365, and only the ones that make mistakes are on the news.

Just a guess here, but maybe people fail to believe because more than 1-3% of their police encounters have been with assholes. In addition to being a normal guy who occasionally gets a speeding ticket, I spent many years as a Volunteer EMT and Fire Chief: I've worked with and dealt with a few cops, ranging from the very finest to true sadistic psychopaths.

Based on my lifetime of observation, I do not believe the 1-3% figure. Maybe once, but that was in the past. I've known some really fine Officers; most of them have retired or are about to. My best friend since Jr. High put in 30 years as a King County Mountie, and he's very glad to be out of it.

Police are the enforcement tools of the ruling class, and what that ruling class wants today is not Officer Friendly.

I am glad we have no "duty to declare" in my state, but I believe the linking of CPL to Driver's License and Vehicle Registration is done in hopes of causing a few violent events that can be used by the anti-freedom forces of the ruling class.
 

BC1

,
As a benefit to the firearms forum community, I took it upon myself to contact a police officer I know regarding the Canton, OH CCW stop. He is a training officer for regular officers and SWAT for over a dozen years, and also currently teaches the CCW class in Ohio. He gave me permission to quote him on his response when I told him I wished to get an official answer back to the readers of the forum.

First off, my officer's response about the Canton, OH officer's behavior: "He's an a$$hole. However, law enforcement has a failure rate of 2-3% (officers like the one in the video) and corporate America has a failure rate of 25%, so police recruiting is doing about 10 times better than the business average. The problem is we hire humans, and there will always be some failures that slip through all the screening that we do. The good news is that they will eventually do something like the officer in the video and be fired for it."

Next, as far as immediate notification of CCW: "The first words out of your mouth should be "I have a CCW" as you hand BOTH your CCW and your license to the officer. Keep your CCW with your license so you can draw them as one and hand them with the CCW on TOP. Do not start with, 'Officer' or 'Hello' as this gives a chance for the officer to interrupt you. If you are still told to shut up, you should keep your license and CCW held out towards the officer and comply with his instructions. You can only do the best you can under the circumstances."

Final notes from my officer: "I hope everyone will remember that this is a training problem with the officers and 97-98% of the time will NOT happen! I am adding this video to my officer training set as an example of how not to handle a CCW stop and the perfect way to get fired. If you are unlucky enough to be stopped by someone like this officer, do exactly what the driver in the video did - stay cool, agree with the officer, follow his commands, and settle it the next day with attorneys and his superiors."

On my phone call to my officer, he said that the communication center in Ohio should always inform the officer that the tag they are pulling over is attached to a person who has a CCW, so in Ohio, the officer should already know. But this doesn't relieve your duty to inform. When you inform, you basically show the officer that you know the law and intend to comply, which means you are law-abiding and are probably not going to pull the weapon on him. It's a courtesy for the safety of the officer. However, in my officer's own words: "We are trained police officers. We are supposed to treat every stop as if the driver and passengers are armed. It should not surprise an officer that you are carrying and he definitely shouldn't over-react like the officer in the video."

I hope this clarifies it for some people and puts some answers to the grey areas. If you have any questions that still exist, especially for Ohio CCW carriers, post them in response to this and I'll pass them along to my training officer for his comment.
What a bunch of bull. 25% failure rate in business? I'd love to know where he gets that stat. i never had a work force where 25% of my employees failed at their job. This LEO has some serious anger issues. He couldn't keep a job at Burger King with that behavior. Look at that video again. this isn't some guy having a bad day. This is an accomplished lunatic. People don't go that far over the edge just once. This is part of his personality. He needs help.
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
I would guess the bad apples are most likely the same percentage as in life as general, most but not all of my encounters have been friendly, I try to always be friendly, you may not win the battle but you will win the war in this day and age. The officer in this encounter was a loose cannon and needs to be fired.
 

Deanimator

New member
Look at that video again. this isn't some guy having a bad day. This is an accomplished lunatic. People don't go that far over the edge just once. This is part of his personality. He needs help.
Actually, look at BOTH videos, since there are two displaying virtually identical behavior.

Officer Harless apparently has only ONE way to deal with the public.

You could put Dennis Hopper in a police uniform, have him read his lines from "Blue Velvet", and you couldn't tell the two of them apart.
 

Deanimator

New member
I would guess the bad apples are most likely the same percentage as in life as general, most but not all of my encounters have been friendly, I try to always be friendly, you may not win the battle but you will win the war in this day and age. The officer in this encounter was a loose cannon and needs to be fired.
I'm polite to police, but not friendly. But then I'm not friendly to any stranger whose intentions I mistrust.

I have the same reaction to an involuntary police contact that I do to a panhandler, "What's he up to?"
 

rifleshooter474

New member
The wife and I had a really unhappy deal with a Tulsa Oklahoma Police Officer Kristy Maxwell Allen, having me arrested just on this guys statement I pointed a handgun at him.
After 11 Months of going through the Courts slow step by step system, a jury found me not guilty.
This worthless cop Allen just did not care about anything but me having a handgun even with me having a CCW permit.
Well we complained about this cop, and after a letter to our Chief of Police Chuck Jordan, he made the Mingo Valley Div. where Allen works or says she works give us a full sit down hearing.
Well after hearing and reading all our complaints, they just denied anything was done wrong.
She even told me that the jury got it wrong in finding me not guilty.
As far as she was concerned she was correct in arresting me and still felt the guy told the truth.
And her supervisor and the Div. Capt. Halberg backed her up 100%.
They did not even address out right lies Allen had written, as far as they were concerned is was over, we admit doing everything by the book.
So don't expect the Police to ever admit doing anything wrong.
 

Hamilton Felix

New member
There speaks a man who has received an education in the School of Life. Be warned, you've made an enemy of an officer who falsely arrested you once; it's now very likely to happen again. You now have a big target painted on your back.
 

tailgatot

New member
Ex officer

I agree when you get stopped have your lic and ccw ready so when asked give both to the officer. Most of the time I used to ask what they carried and they were happy to tell me and that made the stop easy for both of us
 

rifleshooter474

New member
There speaks a man who has received an education in the School of Life. Be warned, you've made an enemy of an officer who falsely arrested you once; it's now very likely to happen again. You now have a big target painted on your back.

The wife and I fully understand this, and expect to be watched and maybe arrested again.
 

rifleshooter474

New member
To say that only 1% to 3% is bad is unreal. From politicians to police and judges in New Orleans are horrible. I have never been arrested. Never been to jail. Im terrified to get stop by police. Not only am I trying to protect myself from bad guys. But bad cops even more. Thats why I have my CCW. I have been stopped by police because off the sterEotypes that police have down here. And they have always been smart asses. Im a retail manager for a large company. I have friends that do detail work for me. So im not anti cops or anything. Just saying the police are just as dangerous as the everyday criminals. And then some!

There is going on right now in Federal Court in Tulsa,Oklahoma of two cops accused of planting drugs on a bunch of people and getting them sent to prison. Many have already been released because of the on going investigation.
Other cops have already pled guilty of pocketing cash they found in a FBI sting.
This went on in Tulsa Oklahoma for a long long time, the higher ups say they knew nothing about all this stuff.
They railroaded many people just to make a case for themselves. What a rotten deal and what a bunch of rotten cops.
 

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