Can We PA-leez Put the Sheep Dog Myth To Rest?


Treo

Bullet Proof
It seems like once a week or so someone shows up here proclaiming their sheep dog status and sometimes telling the rest of us what cowards we are for not buying into the “sheep dog” ethos. I’ve even read posts that proclaim that we (permit holders) have a duty “lay down our lives” in defense of “the sheep”. It was also stated that if your family is left behind in poverty because of your actions they should collect their welfare and feel honored that you died a “sheep dog”

To be perfectly honest “sheep dogs” scare me, they strike me as the type of person that is carrying a gun just waiting for a chance to be “a hero”. It’s been my experience that people that want to be heroes tend to blow a situation out of proportion in their quest to fulfill the “sheep dog” role.

Any time I carry a gun (which is all the time) I am incurring the risk of liability and I am accepting full responsibility for my actions. Why would I want to add to that risk by deliberately interjecting myself into a situation that has nothing to do with me? Also how am I fulfilling my responsibility to protect my family by adding to their risk (of losing their primary provider) by so doing?

IMO anyone who grabs onto that title is looking for something outside themselves to add meaning to their life and (also IMO)they are looking in a very dangerous place

Grossman’s “Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves” was mainly directed at professional soldiers and police officers it was never intended to be a Raison d'être for concealed carry permit holders. It’s an analogy and like all analogies its flawed and you don’t have to take it too far to find the flaws.

Sheep are herd animals that are kept not out of the benevolent goodness of their owner’s heart but because they produce goods that benefit the owner and only the owner. Where do you think the term getting “fleeced” came from? Unproductive sheep are killed.

Sheepdogs are not part of the flock they are employed to impose the owner’s will on the sheep, by force if necessary. They guard the flock because it is of benefit to the owner and they have no qualms about herding the flock to a slaughterhouse if that is what the owner commands. Sheep dog is not an appellation I would care to have applied to me.

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them. This is, of course, my opinion but I have also seen posters on gun boards state that our status as permit holders makes us defacto auxiliary police officers. As such I believe the sheepdog mythology is very, very dangerous to the gun owning community and I speak against it at every opportunity.
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
sheep dogs...
anyone who ever put on a uniform for the military, law enforcement, fire or EMS. Those are the true sheep dogs. Anything else is just so much keyboard commando rhetoric and possibly stolen valor.
I served in the USAF for over 20 years...I am a sheep dog (retired).
My oldest son is a Marine...he is a sheepdog in ways you will never know.
My middle son is a fireman...more of a sheepdog than you can imagine.
My youngest wants to join the Army and fly helicopters as soon as he graduates...(future sheepdog but has not earned the title yet).
If you ever put on a uniform in service of your fellow man you are a sheepdog. If you have not you are only an armed individual...it is not up for discussion.
 

Treo

Bullet Proof
If you ever put on a uniform in service of your fellow man you are a sheepdog. If you have not you are only an armed individual...it is not up for discussion.

I wore my country's uniform for most of my adult life. I still refuse to be labled "sheep dog"
 

CapGun

New member
Good post Treo! As just a regular citizen with a CCP I always viewed the sheepdog thing as a sort of correlation between me and the Second Amendment. Not between me and the rest of Society as some kind of self appointed Police Officer. By Appeals Court decisions the Police nor the Government has a responsibility or liability to protect the individual from harm.
Taken in the colloquial and not the extreme given a choice most here would say that they are not sheep or wolves but sheepdogs. Just don't get carried away with yourself on that title. festus knows who really deserve the official title of Sheepdog!
 

rifleshooter474

New member
Most Police do not want a civilian carrying a firearm, they feel they are the only ones who should have them. If you are attacked and are killed, that's just your hard luck.
 

kelcarry

New member
Well said Treo. We may have our testy replies but I absolutely agree with what you say on this thread. I would add that I get "scared" sometimes by the "tone" and obvious intent of many threads and/or replies. Granted many of us become rather verbose and brave when sitting at a computer but some of the words used in this forum lead me to believe that we have some Dirty Harrys out there who just cannot wait to protect "truth, justice and the american way" ala superman. Even the idea that the term "sheep" seems to encompass everyone without a CCW is, IMO, reaching. It infers that the so-called "sheepdog" is literally akin to an LEO, which is far from true even if your opinion of LEOs is somewhat negative.
The reply that LEOs all fall into the sheepdog category is a bit much, IMO. The procedures for obtaining a CCWP and a firearm are far from failsafe and if you are an LEO, you should be concerned that there are many out there who have no business CC--be it psychological, criminal etal.
 

Seeya

New member
Most Police do not want a civilian carrying a firearm, they feel they are the only ones who should have them. If you are attacked and are killed, that's just your hard luck.

Police forget that they are private citizens authorized to investigate and make arrests based upon thier investigation. We need to go back to common law and throw out the Uniform Commercial Code that all states have adopted. It create's a misconception of what is lawful and what is not.

20 CA 3d 1032; Mich. v. Duke, 266 US 576, 69, 449.)
State police power extends only to immediate threats to public safety,
health, and welfare.

US Navy Veteran , and I am not a "Sheep Dog"!
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
As former military, I carry only for my own and my familys protection, will dail 911 if I see you needing help.
 

Dewhitewolf

Armed Snowboarder
It's actually quite refreshing to see someone post a more well thought out interpretation of the sheepdog mentality. I can see how some permit carriers might interpret themselves as a sheepdog, or self-appointed protector of society, but that mentality really needs to be put to rest.

The society that self-appointed sheepdogs would choose to "protect" will not protect them against criminal or civil liabilities. Thank you Treo for pointing that out. Likely both of those liabilities, even if found innocent, will cost you in lawyer bills for the good part of the rest of your life. It would only be out of the goodness of a few hearts that donations might be taken up, but who here is digging into their pockets now? Even if you're a permit carrier, and you pull a gun out to save the life of another (we'll assume for the sake of discussion that the shooting is justified), the victim has no obligation to assist you financially in your defense.

I had never considered the relationship of the sheep to the shepherd in this analogy; that the sheep is there for the benefit of the shepherd, and unproductive sheep are killed. Therefore, the sheepdog is basically more of a prison guard than a protector. Therefore, equating oneself to a sheepdog would be analagous to being a tool of oppression or intimidation. This is a great point I had not considered before.

Bottom line, the sheepdog analogy is flawed. Thank you Treo for your discussion on this topic.

On another note, I was not in the military (rejected for health reasons). I never served as LEO (never even got as far as an interview). I was a volunteer firefighter and EMT for four years. Then and now, I never considered myself a sheepdog, even when I was aware of the whole sheepdog interpretation.
 

walt629

New member
Don't allways agree...

Treo, I don't always agree with you but this time I have to tell you... well said! :pleasantry:
 

Pinnacle Safety

New member
The ultimate truth my gun my protection
911 your protection ..... Get a gun it increases your chances of living the wait can literally become breath taking
 

Punch

New member
I wish that I could have "Liked" the OP twice, or may three times! I agree completely. I have caused other people at work to get a CCW because of discussions like this. When asked if I would enter a building where someone was shooting people to save them, I told them that I would not. The Second Amendment applies to everyone. Why should I lay down my life for someone who does not value his own life enough to defend himself. Several people came up to me after that conversation and asked what they needed to do to defend themselves. I had the pleasure of teaching a couple of them, and saw one get his CCW some months later. I find the real benefit to society are those that help others help themselves, not those that think thy have to protect everyone else.
 

ske1eter

New member
When asked if I would enter a building where someone was shooting people to save them, I told them that I would not. The Second Amendment applies to everyone. Why should I lay down my life for someone who does not value his own life enough to defend himself.

Thumbs up!
 

S&W645

NRA Life Member
I am more like my Rottie. Doesn't care if you aren't bothering me or the rest of the family. But enter our space and you will get a warning if not known and a possible threat. Continue on with your threat and you'd better be willing to defend yourself. If a friend, he'll let you in the yard, wait till you close the gate, and then put in an appearance. After dark he'll observe till the gate is closed and then put his nose in your hand. Sneaky dog.


Which is way better than a Lab.

Duck Hunt.
UNBELIEVABLE!!

ABSOLUTELY A TRUE STORY HEARD ON A WISCONSIN RADIO STATION

REPORTING ON THE INCIDENT.

A guy buys a new Lincoln Navigator for $42,500.00 with monthly payments of $560.00.

He and a friend go duck hunting in upper Wisconsin.
It's mid-winter.............and of course all of the lakes are frozen.

These two guys go out on the ice with their GUNS, a DOG, and of course the new NAVIGATOR.
They decide they want to make a natural looking open water area for the ducks to focus on, something for the decoys to float on.

Now..................making a hole in the ice large enough to invite a passing duck, is going to take a little more power than the average drill auger can produce. So........................out of the back of the new Navigator comes a stick of dynamite with a short 40 second-fuse.

Our two Rocket Scientists...........afraid they might slip on the ice while trying to run away after lighting the fuse (and becoming toast, along with the Navigator), decide on the following course of action:

- they light the 40 second fuse; then, with a mighty thrust,
- they throw the stick of dynamite as far away as possible.

Remember a couple of paragraphs back when I mentioned the NAVIGATOR, the GUNS, and the DOG...?

Let's talk about the dog:

A highly trained Black Lab used for RETRIEVING; especially things thrown by the owner.
You guessed it......................The dog takes off across the ice at a high rate of speed and grabs the stick of dynamite, with the burning 40-second fuse........... just as it hits the ice.

The two men swallow, blink, start waving their arms and, with veins in their necks swelling to resemble stalks of rhubarb, scream and holler at the dog to stop.

The dog, now apparently cheered on by his master, keeps coming.
One hunter panics, grabs the shotgun and shoots the dog. The shotgun is loaded with #8 bird shot, hardly big enough to stop a Black Lab.

The dog stops for a moment, slightly confused, then continues on. Another shot, and this time the dog, still standing, becomes really confused and of course terrified, thinks these two geniuses have gone insane!!!!!!

The dog takes off to find cover, UNDER the brand new Navigator.

The men continue to scream as they run. The red hot exhaust pipe on the truck touches the dog's rear end...................he yelps, drops the dynamite under the truck and takes off after his master.

Then KA BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

The truck is blown to bits and sinks to the bottom of the lake, leaving the two idiots standing there with 'I can't believe this just happened' looks on their faces.

The insurance company says that sinking a vehicle in a lake by illegal use
of explosives is NOT COVERED by the policy. And he still had yet to make
the first of those $560.00 a month payments.

The dog is okay....doing fine.

And to think you thought all Rednecks lived in the South.......


The Lab is like the Sheepdog. He thinks he's there to help you but can put you in a world of hurt with good intentions. Don't be the Sheepdog.
 

RJ_Whitlock

M&P 9mm
I don't know how I personally stand on the subject in matter. I know someone posted if they heard shots and were ask to help they wouldn't (I'm not hating on this person at all everyone has right speak how they feel). I'm not saying I'm a sheepdog, a wanna-be LEO, Rambo, or a Hero. If I heard shots close to me, in my mind my safety is at a very high possibility of being compromised.

Even if not seeing the threat directly, whose to say the BG won't end up walking out the door and start shooting in your direction. I don't know if I could live with myself knowing that many, many people could end up being killed and I did nothing to stop it. We all die someday, why not try to help on the way out.

Just my .02 cents. (I'm sure I'll get flamed but its just what has been going through my head)
 

bikridr

New member
I have to agree . A large part of the problem is people not willing to help each other , it doesn't have anything to do with playing Rambo. Could you look at yourself in the mirror or explain to your children why it was ok to let someone be attacked or killed when you could have stopped it?
 

ske1eter

New member
I don't know how I personally stand on the subject in matter. I know someone posted if they heard shots and were ask to help they wouldn't (I'm not hating on this person at all everyone has right speak how they feel).

I think that many CCW's and armed folks in their homes, go through the thoughts that you have. In ones mind, every decision made is the correct one, we know who the bad guy is, etc. In the scenario above, you hear a call for help but how do you know if it's the good guy or bad buy is yelling?

I'm not saying I'm a sheepdog, a wanna-be LEO, Rambo, or a Hero. If I heard shots close to me, in my mind my safety is at a very high possibility of being compromised.

Even if not seeing the threat directly, whose to say the BG won't end up walking out the door and start shooting in your direction.

I believe that if one hears shots, and are not actively engaged with the threat, one should probably be looking for a way to exit the area and avoid the threat so that you could avoid having to become engaged in a deadly force situation.

I don't know if I could live with myself knowing that many, many people could end up being killed and I did nothing to stop it. We all die someday, why not try to help on the way out.

Just my .02 cents. (I'm sure I'll get flamed but its just what has been going through my head)

I don't think that you'll get flamed as I think lot of us go through the same thought process that you did. It's just that to some, including myself, that unknown circumstances in a violent situation, the potential for a gungho prosecutor and possibility of jail time, cost of defending oneself in court, etc. causes us to take a step back. As mentioned,since the person that you feel the need to help has the same option to chose a gun to protect themselves and didn't, we don't feel the requirement to interject.

Maybe I'm a bad person because I have told friends that have CCW's , who occasionally carry or not carry at all, that they should not expect me to protect them if something breaks out just because they know that I nearly always have a gun.
 

RJ_Whitlock

M&P 9mm
I have to agree . A large part of the problem is people not willing to help each other , it doesn't have anything to do with playing Rambo. Could you look at yourself in the mirror or explain to your children why it was ok to let someone be attacked or killed when you could have stopped it?

Exactly! Where the did help your fellow man mentality go?
 

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