Can I draw my weapon in this case?

[bofh]

He wasn't a criminal, which coincides with conviction. He was a thug.

May be that's the issue. Some people call it as they see it and some not. It looks like we may need to use the term thug for all people that have committed crimes, but haven't been caught or convicted yet. Once they are convicted, we can call them criminals.

 

[apvbguy]

May be that's the issue. Some people call it as they see it and some not. It looks like we may need to use the term thug for all people that have committed crimes, but haven't been caught or convicted yet. Once they are convicted, we can call them criminals.

they can be criminals without being convicted, modern vernacular in some places might refer to them as thugs.
once they're convicted they are referred to as convicts

 

[NavyLCDR]

There is a big difference in situations between the scenario in the OP and Zimmerman/Martin. If the person intervening in the situation in the OP observed everything, from the beginning of the interaction between the bus driver and rider all the way through to the assault on the bus driver - than the person intervening would have observed a felony (in Washington State) being committed in their presence. Initially, I don't believe that Zimmerman observed Martin actually in the act of committing a crime. Two entirely different situations which may call for different levels of action.

 

[Riverkilt]

might depend on the age of the victim. Friend did draw down in a very similar situation - but same age combatants. He was losing the fist fight and drew down to stop it. Other guy was drinking and made a grab for the gun which discharged putting a .45 slug in the assailants aorta and the bad guy bled out. Friend did 5 years in state prison for manslaughter - for introducing the gun into the fist fight. Judge and prosecutor said, "You were the victim until you pulled the pistol." Arizona case.

 

[apvbguy]

might depend on the age of the victim. Friend did draw down in a very similar situation - but same age combatants. He was losing the fist fight and drew down to stop it. Other guy was drinking and made a grab for the gun which discharged putting a .45 slug in the assailants aorta and the bad guy bled out. Friend did 5 years in state prison for manslaughter - for introducing the gun into the fist fight. Judge and prosecutor said, "You were the victim until you pulled the pistol." Arizona case.

anecdotal stories like this mean little because we know almost none of the facts. At face value I'd say as long as he could have provided a disparity of force situation and prove that he was not the aggressor he may have not been convicted of anything. YMMV

 

[maat]

The post was not about castle doctrine or stand your ground...it was about a fist fight. What are you guys gonna do...travel to all the public schools and break up fights with your glock...are you crazy. No wonder the anti's are getting so much ammunition against the second amendment. Hell, I would take your guns away too if I thought you were going around breaking up fist fights with your guns. It is a fist fight folks. Haven't any of you metrosexuals ever been in a fist fight. I been in a few. Some I started and some others started. When the fight was over it was over and nobody had gunshot residue on their hands and nobody had bullet holes in their body. Wow...many of you guys must be gen Xer's to think that a good ole fist fight requires the use of deadly force.

Here in Oklahoma, stand your ground applies to protecting others(anywhere)as well as yourself. This includes meeting force with force, which allows lethal force if deemed necessary. Also, my reading of the law, it states that you are exempt from criminal and civil prosecution. So, knowing your states laws is important and relevant to this thread. The only question here is what circumstances would be deemed necessary lethal force. Arguably, I have not seen evidence that supports lethal force in this OP. Yet, it is not beyond reason that any situation of this kind could easily escalate to its viability.

 

[BluesStringer]

Here in Oklahoma, stand your ground applies to protecting others(anywhere)as well as yourself. This includes meeting force with force, which allows lethal force if deemed necessary. Also, my reading of the law, it states that you are exempt from criminal and civil prosecution. So, knowing your states laws is important and relevant to this thread. The only question here is what circumstances would be deemed necessary lethal force. Arguably, I have not seen evidence that supports lethal force in this OP. Yet, it is not beyond reason that any situation of this kind could easily escalate to its viability.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you probably missed that this thread is goin' on three years dead now, and the person to whom you responded has been banned for at least one, probably closer to two, of those years. Also, the OP was written by a known advocate of gun control, including banning the dreaded "assault rifles," though that's not something you "missed," just something that you would/will learn if you spend any significant amount of time here.

Otherwise, welcome to the forums.

Blues

 

[HKS]

Here in Oklahoma, stand your ground applies to protecting others(anywhere)as well as yourself. This includes meeting force with force, which allows lethal force if deemed necessary. Also, my reading of the law, it states that you are exempt from criminal and civil prosecution. So, knowing your states laws is important and relevant to this thread. The only question here is what circumstances would be deemed necessary lethal force. Arguably, I have not seen evidence that supports lethal force in this OP. Yet, it is not beyond reason that any situation of this kind could easily escalate to its viability.

A rather old thread resurrected by Maat in Okla.

I think the first response was correct -- that it would depend on the given State.

In my State, if one of the two is down on the ground and unconscious and therefore unable to defend himself any further, AND the other continues to pommel him/her, THEN a bystander may intervene with deadly force.

Or if one of the two pulls out a weapon AND goes for the other, THEN as well.

Prior to that time I think you need to stand back, observe, and report.

 

[HKS]

anecdotal stories like this mean little because we know almost none of the facts. At face value I'd say as long as he could have provided a disparity of force situation and prove that he was not the aggressor he may have not been convicted of anything. YMMV

My default reaction in the case of two others getting into it with each other is to stand back, observe, and report.

My life is not in danger so I don't put it in danger by getting involved.

But this does not change my own standing rules of engagement:

1 - if I see someone other than a cop carrying a firearm openly, then I lift and tuck my shirt or sweater so that I too am from that point on in open carry mode.

2 - if I see someone other than a cop draw a firearm, then I too will draw my firearm, and keep it pointed in a safe direction, normally straight up.

3 - if someone points a gun at me, then I am going to fire about 5 shots at them first.

Those are my own rules -- observe and report -- but also react accordingly.

I thought the original bus example was fairly straightforward -- two other guys are getting into it.

Therefore I would stay out of their way, observe, and report. Etc.

 

[HKS]

might depend on the age of the victim. Friend did draw down in a very similar situation - but same age combatants. He was losing the fist fight and drew down to stop it. Other guy was drinking and made a grab for the gun which discharged putting a .45 slug in the assailants aorta and the bad guy bled out. Friend did 5 years in state prison for manslaughter - for introducing the gun into the fist fight. Judge and prosecutor said, "You were the victim until you pulled the pistol." Arizona case.

This is a classic example of what I call "the uncertainty of trial law".

I have a rule that I don't get into fist fights or knife fights when I am carrying my pistol (which is 24/7/365).

If someone wants to pick a fight with me then I simply tell them that I am not interested in fighting.

If they then assault me I will shoot them from close range. Obviously self defense in that case.

Nobody has the right to punch you. Especially not nonstop.

 

[maat]

A rather old thread resurrected by Maat in Okla.

I think the first response was correct -- that it would depend on the given State.

In my State, if one of the two is down on the ground and unconscious and therefore unable to defend himself any further, AND the other continues to pommel him/her, THEN a bystander may intervene with deadly force.

Or if one of the two pulls out a weapon AND goes for the other, THEN as well.

Prior to that time I think you need to stand back, observe, and report.

I was looking for a thread that discusses physical intervention or self-defense while carrying. This was the closest I found for 20 pages. One of the things I worry about is being injected into a fist fight while armed. Obviously, avoidance is first priority, but what about defending the weak or old from what could be a dangerous outcome?

I had a bum confront me on my shop property once. I was armed and remained silent, while deeply wishing to punch his lights out. He left, but what if he had not and started a fight? I'm not running on my own property and I don't think it is wise to fight with a gun on me. So, what would be my options?

 

[Eidolon]

I had a bum confront me on my shop property once. I was armed and remained silent, while deeply wishing to punch his lights out. He left, but what if he had not and started a fight? I'm not running on my own property and I don't think it is wise to fight with a gun on me. So, what would be my options?

You tell him "Leave right now or I'm calling the cops." And if he does anything but leave you call them. I've never known it to fail

I'm not running on my own property

The first thing you need to get rid of if you're going to carry a gun is your ego. If (God forbid) you ever have to use a gun in self defense you'd better be able to show that you had no other choice but to pull that trigger. If that means running on your own property you run on your own property

 

[maat]

You tell him "Leave right now or I'm calling the cops." And if he does anything but leave you call them. I've never known it to fail




The first thing you need to get rid of if you're going to carry a gun is your ego. If (God forbid) you ever have to use a gun in self defense you'd better be able to show that you had no other choice but to pull that trigger. If that means running on your own property you run on your own property

That's not what Stand my ground laws say. But yes, off my property, I'm running if it works.

 

[Eidolon]

That's not what Stand my ground laws say. But yes, off my property, I'm running if it works.

Read this again.

The first thing you need to get rid of if you're going to carry a gun is your ego. If (God forbid) you ever have to use a gun in self defense you'd better be able to show that you had no other choice but to pull that trigger. If that means running on your own property you run on your own property

 

[bofh]

maat, you may want to read this thread for further education on what not to do: My friend is being held for murder after defending his home.

 

[Eidolon]

maat, you may want to read this thread for further education on what not to do: My friend is being held for murder after defending his home.

I think we have another troll

 

[bofh]

I think we have another troll

Likely.

 

[HKS]

I was looking for a thread that discusses physical intervention or self-defense while carrying. This was the closest I found for 20 pages. One of the things I worry about is being injected into a fist fight while armed. Obviously, avoidance is first priority, but what about defending the weak or old from what could be a dangerous outcome?

I had a bum confront me on my shop property once. I was armed and remained silent, while deeply wishing to punch his lights out. He left, but what if he had not and started a fight? I'm not running on my own property and I don't think it is wise to fight with a gun on me. So, what would be my options?

So this is two different questions then -- one about defending yourself -- and another about defending others.

Defending others is very tricky. The worst thing that could happen is that they could both turn on you. This is most likely in a domestic struggle or between a father and son, or brothers. How do you know what you are getting yourself into?

If I saw someone about to kill somebody, then I would intervene by drawing on one of them, aiming-in on them, and telling them to freeze. At the same time I would be hoping there were enough witnesses watching to corroborate my position in the now-3-way fight.

The smartest thing would be NOT to interfere, just call the police on your cell phone and continue to observe from a safe distance. Tell the police which direction the perp took off in, or the license plate on his car.

As far as self defense goes, you should never let anyone get within arm's reach or even lunging distance of you.

If you are going to draw, draw while you are retreating. You always want a good distance between you and any opponent.

 

[maat]

maat, you may want to read this thread for further education on what not to do: My friend is being held for murder after defending his home.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges a bit. First, a house is different than a car. Second, the house is not surrounded by bikers. Third, the wife and kid are not inches away. And again, I'm not suggesting anyone shoot someone outside the car.

 

[maat]

I think we have another troll

So, this is your response to legitimate debate? Even though I have my opinion I am being exposed to information and am not ruling it out. Don't think that I do not grasp the gravity of the responsibility of carrying and the possibility that justice does not get served properly. My reluctence to just tie my hands in chains is that over-fretting the possibilities may cost me or a loved ones life.