Can I draw my weapon in this case?

[cluznar]

A bus driver told a young man to turn his music down. The young man started forward swearing at the driver. The driver stopped the bus, got off and called police on his cell phone. The guy got off and approached the driver who told him he wanted no more trouble. The young guy punched the driver in the shoulder and the driver pushed him backwards. Then the young guy started hitting the driver more. Now at this point would I have the right to pull my weapon and tell the perp to stop? And if he came at me would I be right in pulling the trigger? He had no knife of gun in his hand, but could have done some damage.

I was not on this bus, just wonder what I may have done if I was? :triniti:

Police did show up and arrest the man.

 

[Eidolon]

Highly dependant on your state, in Cali probably not

 

[NavyLCDR]

Depends entirely upon state law.... in Washington, the answer is yes, you could legally use deadly force:

RCW 9A.36.031: Assault in the third degree.
RCW 9A.36.031
Assault in the third degree.
(1) A person is guilty of assault in the third degree if he or she, under circumstances not amounting to assault in the first or second degree:
(b) Assaults a person employed as a transit operator or driver, the immediate supervisor of a transit operator or driver, a mechanic, or a security officer, by a public or private transit company or a contracted transit service provider, while that person is performing his or her official duties at the time of the assault;
(2) Assault in the third degree is a class C felony.

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

 

[Bikenut]

A bus driver told a young man to turn his music down. The young man started forward swearing at the driver. The driver stopped the bus, got off and called police on his cell phone. The guy got off and approached the driver who told him he wanted no more trouble. The young guy punched the driver in the shoulder and the driver pushed him backwards. Then the young guy started hitting the driver more. Now at this point would I have the right to pull my weapon and tell the perp to stop? And if he came at me would I be right in pulling the trigger? He had no knife of gun in his hand, but could have done some damage.

I was not on this bus, just wonder what I may have done if I was? :triniti:

Police did show up and arrest the man.

Without getting into specific laws that can vary from State to State (and everyone who carries a gun should be very aware of and have an exceptionally good understanding of the applicable laws in the State they are in at the moment) the question that needs to be answered would be:

-Is someone in immediate and dire danger of death or grave bodily harm?

If not then lethal force isn't necessary.

The presence or absence of what is normally considered a "weapon" isn't the issue since hands and feet can be used as deadly weapons.

Bottom line... and without being a smart arse for such is not my intention.... it would be wise for everyone to research the applicable laws effective in the State they are in (note I didn't say "where they reside" because people sometimes legally carry while on vacation or visiting in other States too)....instead of asking what is legally justified on an internet forum. Know the laws inside and out so you can stay out of the inside of a prison.

 

[BC1]

NO!!!!
.
I don't care about the law. No smart person would introduce a gun in that situation. While the law may allow it this is a tool of last resort. If you use a gun in self-defense or defense of others, even if you are 100% correct it will probably ruin your life. You only pull that heater when the situation is so grave that you MUST ruin your life to save a life. Learn from Zipperhead-Zimmerman. Hindsight is 20/20. Keep the damn thing in your holster.

 

[telpinaro]

The only reason I would even remotely consider it would be if it was legal AND there was such a big disparity of force that I was absolutely certain that the bus driver was going to die before the cops got there. Even then it wouldn't be a sure thing... I've got my family to think of, and they won't be helped by my being detained for any length of time.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And the thread derails from if it is legal or not to whether or not individual members of the forum would or would not suggest or do it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

A bus driver told a young man to turn his music down. The young man started forward swearing at the driver. The driver stopped the bus, got off and called police on his cell phone.

Also in Washington you better be sure that the bus driver is calling for help, because if nobody else is calling for help then you are breaking the law by not calling for help:

RCW 9A.36.160
Failing to summon assistance.
A person is guilty of the crime of failing to summon assistance if:
(1) He or she was present when a crime was committed against another person; and
(2) He or she knows that the other person has suffered substantial bodily harm as a result of the crime committed against the other person and that the other person is in need of assistance; and
(3) He or she could reasonably summon assistance for the person in need without danger to himself or herself and without interference with an important duty owed to a third party; and
(4) He or she fails to summon assistance for the person in need; and
(5) Another person is not summoning or has not summoned assistance for the person in need of such assistance.

 

[kelcarry]

Without getting into specific laws that can vary from State to State (and everyone who carries a gun should be very aware of and have an exceptionally good understanding of the applicable laws in the State they are in at the moment) the question that needs to be answered would be:

-Is someone in immediate and dire danger of death or grave bodily harm?

If not then lethal force isn't necessary.



The presence or absence of what is normally considered a "weapon" isn't the issue since hands and feet can be used as deadly weapons.

Bottom line... and without being a smart arse for such is not my intention.... it would be wise for everyone to research the applicable laws effective in the State they are in (note I didn't say "where they reside" because people sometimes legally carry while on vacation or visiting in other States too)....instead of asking what is legally justified on an internet forum. Know the laws inside and out so you can stay out of the inside of a prison.

In SC and I am sure other states, we have the Alter Ego Rule in our gun laws. You, as a third party, can intervene in a confrontation as if the person in danger is you and you have a reasonable assumption of great bodily harm or death. Makes sense when you read it but many times you can never be sure what prompted the confrontation in the first place. In the scenario that is this thread, it sounds like initiation of the confrontation from minute #1 occurred in front of the third party and that third party, if he was the bus driver and had a firearm and had a reasonable presumption of death or great bodily injury could have used his firearm--under that situation, you would have the same right to intervene with your firearm. Just pushing and shoving and even some hitting may not, however, rise to the level of potential death or great bodily injury--this is where the Alter Ego Rule sounds good on paper but can be problematic. If it is you on the wrong end of a confrontation, you can make a reasonable assumption of death or great bodily injury--if it is someone else, it gets a bit more difficult for you to assume how bad the confrontation really is.

 

[JimTh]

I don't think you can bring a gun to a fist fight. If you don't want to help the driver by inserting your self physically just watch to make sure the drivers life isn't being threatened by the introduction of some type of weapon or having the driver on the ground and pulling a travon on the guy.

 

[Nightmare45]

Driver is most likely registered democrat, my weapon is for the defense of myself and family.

 

[mappow]

I don't think you can bring a gun to a fist fight. If you don't want to help the driver by inserting your self physically just watch to make sure the drivers life isn't being threatened by the introduction of some type of weapon or having the driver on the ground and pulling a travon on the guy.

If you think a fist fight is acceptable NOT to defend yourself, pls see the link; Link Removed
YOU make that choice................If you're beating on me, NOT that would ever happen, you'll have high levels of lead poisoning. I'll draw to stop the threat, not reason with the perp. Just as the Law allows.

 

[bofh]

Can I draw my weapon in this case?

Wrong question, wrong mindset. The right question is: Do I have to draw my weapon in this case? The answer would be: NO.

If you intervene by threatening or using lethal force, you better have a good explanation, a good lawyer, and some money to pay the lawyer. Just because you think you acted legally doesn't make it so. You have to defend your actions to the police, the DA, and, potentially, in court.

Can you argue that you came to the defense of the victim with reasonable force and that the victim itself had a "reasonable" fear of death or serious bodily harm? Based on what you described, this is not the case unless the victim was defenseless and the attacker continued.

Again, wrong question, wrong mindset. Why would you draw your weapon in this case? You can intervene with non-lethal measures with significantly less liability. Pushing the attacker away and using some OC spray would be a significantly better course of action than pulling your gun out.

 

[mappow]

Wrong question, wrong mindset. The right question is: Do I have to draw my weapon in this case? The answer would be: NO.

If you intervene by threatening or using lethal force, you better have a good explanation, a good lawyer, and some money to pay the lawyer. Just because you think you acted legally doesn't make it so. You have to defend your actions to the police, the DA, and, potentially, in court.

Can you argue that you came to the defense of the victim with reasonable force and that the victim itself had a "reasonable" fear of death or serious bodily harm? Based on what you described, this is not the case unless the victim was defenseless and the attacker continued.

Again, wrong question, wrong mindset. Why would you draw your weapon in this case? You can intervene with non-lethal measures with significantly less liability. Pushing the attacker away and using some OC spray would be a significantly better course of action than pulling your gun out.

Did you not read my link? OC spray, WTF. If you feel your life is in danger and or the assailant can cause serious damage then you are authorized to use deadly force. I appreciate you non-lethal interjection view but the OP was specific.

 

[apvbguy]

A bus driver told a young man to turn his music down. The young man started forward swearing at the driver. The driver stopped the bus, got off and called police on his cell phone. The guy got off and approached the driver who told him he wanted no more trouble. The young guy punched the driver in the shoulder and the driver pushed him backwards. Then the young guy started hitting the driver more. Now at this point would I have the right to pull my weapon and tell the perp to stop? And if he came at me would I be right in pulling the trigger? He had no knife of gun in his hand, but could have done some damage.

I was not on this bus, just wonder what I may have done if I was? :triniti:

Police did show up and arrest the man.

were you in danger? are you a leo? if no, be a good witness

 

[apvbguy]

NO!!!!
.
I don't care about the law. No smart person would introduce a gun in that situation. While the law may allow it this is a tool of last resort. If you use a gun in self-defense or defense of others, even if you are 100% correct it will probably ruin your life. You only pull that heater when the situation is so grave that you MUST ruin your life to save a life. Learn from Zipperhead-Zimmerman. Hindsight is 20/20. Keep the damn thing in your holster.

zimmerman was well within the law when he shot and killed the violent thug who attacked him, find a better analogy because yours stinks

 

[mappow]

IT did coat Zimmerman LOTS of money. Gotta think about the ramifications. According to the OP, I still would have interacted.

 

[bofh]

Did you not read my link? OC spray, WTF. If you feel your life is in danger and or the assailant can cause serious damage then you are authorized to use deadly force. I appreciate you non-lethal interjection view but the OP was specific.

Just playing devils (the DA's) advocate here. Based OP's the story alone, I don't see "reasonable" fear of death or serious bodily harm. I was about to write a reply to your last post anyway, so here is the summary for both:

The justification for threatening or using deadly force highly depends on the situation. Without knowing more details, I can't argue that threatening or using deadly force would be justified. The one-punch kill story would be a good argument to use in court, but it does not give anyone the general right to use deadly force when getting punched by someone. It just means that you have a defensive strategy afterwards. If the guy punching you weights 300 pounds and you weight 130 pounds, using deadly force is defensible. Same thing goes if you were ambushed (knockout "game") or the attacker used an enhancing technique (martial arts or roll of coins in the fist). If it is the other way around, you are 300 pounds and the attacker is 130 pounds, good luck with that defense. The DA will rip you apart.

Simply put, if you use deadly force, you will have to defend using it afterwards. It will at least cost you time and money. You also have to live with the fact that you killed someone. That someone, by the way, may not necessarily be your standard gang thug, but a guy who lost his job that day and subsequently lost his temper.

... you are authorized to use deadly force. ...

Again, wrong mindset. You are not "authorized to use deadly force", instead, the use of deadly force is defensible in the court of law.

 

[JimTh]

If you think a fist fight is acceptable NOT to defend yourself, pls see the link; Link Removed
YOU make that choice................If you're beating on me, NOT that would ever happen, you'll have high levels of lead poisoning. I'll draw to stop the threat, not reason with the perp. Just as the Law allows.

If your in a fist fight you cannot pull a firearm. The soccer referee never saw the punch coming therefore no gun required. But a simple fist fight is different than a beat down like Zimmerman went through thus as my post stated...keep an eye on things and make sure the guy isn't pulling a travon on the driver. Now if I want to stop participating in the fist fight and the other guy keeps coming, that is another situation. If I am part of the problem and a fight starts I am required to retreat until there is no where to retreat...at least that is the law in Virginia. In other words I cannot be a participant in the formulation of a fist fight and then use deadly force to end the fist fight. Zimmerman did nothing to precipitate the beat down from Martin. The bus driver may have done nothing either but nothing was said about the dude, BG, knocking the driver down and then trying to crush his skull.

 

[Kramer1113]

If Verbally I cannot stop the attack, If I feel the driver is being beaten to a point that is beyond a normal fight, If the former passenger is physically larger and more capable than I am. I would draw my weapon.
To many If's.